n the second episode of Women STAR Hannah Kelly talks to Laura Louise about bi-erasure, biphobia, and the fluidity of sexuality. Also available on Spotify, iTunes and Soundcloud.
You can listen below or you can listen on Acast, Soundcloud, iTunes or Spotify. Links:
Acast: https://shows.acast.com/women-star
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-961403691/hannah-mp3-2-high-quality
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Z6kLFWGvCppH2fWFCBn0R?si=Hw48lbBsRnmJpSvPuI2oMQ
iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/women-star/id1506402572?i=1000473512093
You can listen below or you can listen on Acast, Soundcloud, iTunes or Spotify. Links:
Acast: https://shows.acast.com/women-star
Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-961403691/hannah-mp3-2-high-quality
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Z6kLFWGvCppH2fWFCBn0R?si=Hw48lbBsRnmJpSvPuI2oMQ
iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/women-star/id1506402572?i=1000473512093
Episode 2 Transcription
Intro: And welcome to women STAR Dublin lesbian line’s new podcast created to showcase the stories within the LGBTQAI community, specifically the stories of women STAR, which includes queer, non-binary and transgender people. We want you to feel included whatever way you present yourself to the world so if you have a story you want to tell get in touch with us at www.dublinlesbianline.ie.Today’s guest is Hannah Kelly, DLL wellness course participant, spoke to Laura Louise about bi-erasure, biphobia, and the fluidity of sexuality. We began by asking Hannah why she agreed to speak to us for our new podcast.
Hannah Kelly (HK): I suppose one of the things why it makes sense for me to be doing something like this is that I'm hugely into activism and hugely into kind of making spaces for people to see themselves represented and it just so happens that I come from a lot of different groups that aren't very represented. But I also feel quite comfortable talking about those things quite openly so I've tried to do that whenever I can. So I think being bi is something that a lot of people don't hear about that much and it's something that even in the community it's not really talked about that much so any opportunity I can to talk about bi things I jump on it.
Laura Louise Condell (LLC): So how do you know DLL and what made you want to do the podcast? Apart from me begging you?
HK: I found out about it through the facebook group, the LGBT+ women's... you know that one [LGBTQ+ 20s30s ladies*]. And there was an ad post by yourself I think about a wellness group for women in the community and it was something that I was like 'oh my god, this is exactly what I've been looking for'. And it was absolutely amazing, I learned a lot about myself through it but I actually ended up coming out in work after doing the course so it was absolutely amazing and really perfectly timed. So that's how I found out about DLL. And of course I spoke at Soapbox sessions and now I'm here so that's how I kind of found out about it and started using the services and stuff.
LL: Brilliant, thank you. Would you mind saying what the soapbox sessions were?
HK: I would probably describe it as it's a group forum kind of situation, where speakers get up and speak about mental health or kind of loosely around mental health, because it can cover a lot of different topics within the community. Ehm, it’s during Pride and it's such an amazing experience and everyone should go, it's like such a feel good event. And even though mental health can be quite heavy to talk about sometimes, you’re kind of left feeling 'awh I learned so much today' and feeling really good and listening to everyone's stories was really insightful and stuff. So would recommend it, it's really hard to describe but would recommend anyone to go.
LL: So you're here today to talk to us about bi-erasure and biphobia and your experiences coming out as a bi woman and finding your place as a bi woman, is that okay to say?
HK: Yeah!
LL: So would you like to talk to us about you realised you're bisexual? And I love when you talk about your double coming out, could you talk about that a bit if you don't mind?
HK: Yeah haha, so when I was 15 I was in my first relationship with a girl and I kind of really didn't think about sexuality at all, I was just like 'okay cool I'm in a relationship with a girl, that means I'm a lesbian so I didn't really tell anybody either, like all my friends were gay when I was young... well they still are now, I don't know why I act as if they're not now haha. So I kind of just like was completely with that but I didn't tell my Mam and Dad, was kind of like 'awh I'll just leave it how it is for the minute, no need to tell anybody'. And they actually found this scrapbook thing my then girlfriend had made for me and it was like so cheesy, pictures of the two of us, poetry written and like love poems or whatever... it was really cringey. And ehm, so my Mam and Dad called me into the sitting room and had this scrapbook there and were like 'so what's this about, are you a lesbian?' And I kind of just went 'oh ehh, yeah I guess'. So that was kind of the end of that conversation, they were crying, I cried, it was like a big huge emotional thing and we all moved on and it was fine. My girlfriend was practically living in our house then and it was grand and I never really thought about it again. And then I was single again maybe four years later, and kind of throughout the end of my relationship I had kind of start noticing that I was feeling an attraction... I don't know if I would call it attraction but I had an interest in guys and I didn't really know what to do with it, I was just kind of like 'I don't know what that is so I'll just leave that be'. And I was pretty much, I had decided within myself that 'that's too confusing for me to deal with, I'll just be a lesbian’, because it's not as if I wasn't attracted to women so I was like 'I'll just be attracted to women, that's fine'. But it's not something you can ignore so I said 'I'll just try it out and I'll go on a date with a guy'. So I went on this date with this guy who's a distant mutual friend and it was such a bad date, it was so bad. I always make the joke that it gave me an insight into how bad dating men would be but I was definitely attracted to him though so I couldn't deny that I was definitely attracted to men. So I decided to tell my Mam but I never really used the word bisexual. I kind of found it hard to use the word so I just kind of told her I would now be dating guys too. And it was awkward and it's still kind of awkward and I kind of attribute some of it to how I came out because at the time I was struggling with the label, I didn't use it and tried to make it not a big deal at all and kind of was like 'awh we don't need to... it's just this weird thing, it's fine, we can move on'. And I think that's how it sat in my family for a long time, it was just like 'no one understands this; Hannah doesn't even understand what this is so we'll just not even talk about it'. So that's why my second coming out was not as easy and because I wasn't as comfortable with the label at the time. I think with lesbian I kind of really owned that label and was really comfortable in it straight away because I knew I wasn't straight so that word is what I was given and I was like 'cool!'. And then figuring out that it wasn't the word that was right and I didn't really know. I think almost prematurely came out the second time so it wasn't a comfortable thing so I think the second coming out was a bit more difficult and awkward.
LL: That happens for a lot of people, they come out when they're still coming to terms with... and you shouldn't have to know everything about your identity but if you haven't got all the answers immediately it can be really hard. And then it can be hard to revisit it then with people. It shouldn't be your one chance to say it and get it right and then everyone takes your lead then... people are still figuring it out and if you don't know what it is other people don't know what it is it's harder to work it out with people.
HK: I think it was a huge problem for me because when I was in school I was very much a lesbian, I didn't the whole shave my hair thing, I was like... I was very much... people knew I was a lesbian and I went to an all girls schools and I was actually the head girl in my final year and everyone was cool with me being gay, literally no one cared the school was really cool. But I remember all the girls used to ask me questions and I was fine with it but they used to be like 'how do you know you're a lesbian?’ And I was like 'I just am'. And at that stage that was my truth, I wasn't lying like so I really thought I would never be with men and I was just like 'awh no, the thought of that makes me feel sick' or whatever. And I remember one thing really stuck with me was, one of the girls in my school said to me that she was talking to her Mam, I don't know why she was talking to her Mam about me, but she was saying that there was a lesbian in her year and her Mam said 'oh she's too young to know if she's a lesbian yet'. And I went on this big rant that you know your sexuality or whatever... And then I was only thinking about it a few years later when I was going to come out again that I was like 'I've just proved a lot of people right' and I felt a lot of guilt because I was like 'I am proving that young people don't know their sexuality’ - which is obviously not true. A lot of people do know their sexuality from a young age and it's... I think the reason why I didn't know or why I got a bit confused at the start is because bisexual isn’t really seen as an option when you're that young.
LL: And do you think that because so many people later come out as being gay first come out as being bisexual do you think that has made it harder for bisexual people?
HK: I think people differ on opinion on this. I don't have a huge problem with people doing that because I mean if you need a stepping stone and that makes you feel more comfortable I don't see a problem with it. I mean obviously yeah, it probably does add a bit of stigma around bi people if people see it as a stepping stone but I also don't think it's fair to deny someone whatever comfort or whatever they need to be able to come out and if that's the way people are comfortable doing it then fine. And I also think a lot of people who come out as bi first think they're bi first or they could be bi at that stage in their life. Because as I said I was a lesbian, really at that time I was not interested in men at all. Sexuality is definitely a fluid thing. I wouldn't be denying anyone that or I don't have a problem with anyone who used that as a stepping stone even if they knowingly used it as a stepping stone. Like no one does it maliciously towards bi people, it's an internal thing where they do whatever they can to make it as easy for the people that they're coming out to. The joke is though that no one is more okay with bi people than they are hahah. So like it's actually not more comforting for anyone.
LL: And the thing is if there was no stigma around any sexuality then there wouldn’t be need for things like stepping stones and it wouldn't feed into a stigma because there would be none. And that's a lovely way to put it as well that what makes people more comfortable... and a lot of people do think they're bi and later... or not think even sorry, they might be bi and then they might come out later on... and then of course that can change again as well - it's not necessarily set. As you were saying some people know from when they were young and they feel that way their whole lives but a lot of people especially more and more now are able to acknowledge that it's not so binary for them. So your two coming outs with your family, how did that go with your friends? You said all your friends were gay and still are, how did you find coming out as bisexual to your gay community or your queer community?
HK: Yeah so it was kind the timing of when I came out the second time worked. So my first relationship with my ex girlfriend ended just when I finished school. So that summer my three closest friends were straight girls and I think I told them that I was interested in guys, and I think they would have been quite naive to anything like that and so I was I really at that stage, so they kind of like were like 'awh cool, Hannah's straight now so that's cool’. So they were fine with it and I didn't really know what was going on so was just like 'cool, we'll just go with this now'. So that was fine so then when I started college I kind of really eager to not be... like to not go in and have the same image as I had in school because that didn't fit me anymore so I was like 'okay I don't really know how to go into college and what way I'm supposed to act'. And I also was thinking of how I was in school and how almost anti-bi people I was in school I was like 'I don't want to be shoved off or I don't want to intrude into someone's space' so I just kind of went into college and I was happily just not going to mention my sexuality at all for the whole three years I was there, I was like 'it's fine, it just won't come up' which is so naive to think now. I just really think that's it's fine...
LL: I'll just go study haha.
HK: Yeah! Haha. I'll just study... And I was still kind of like 'I might date girls or guys I just won't tell anyone it's going to be fine'. But it just so happened - I swear to god this is a thing with queer people, you just find other queer people no matter where you go - so it just ended up my group of friends that I made were all queer. So we all just were and I remember we were talking and they were like 'you should come to this [LGBTQ+] society'. And it just didn't feel comfortable, I just didn't really know. I was like 'these people are cool with it but I don't know if a society of people are going to be cool with it and I was like I still don't understand what language I'm supposed to be using yet'. Ehm, but it ended up then in second year I kind of got up the courage to join the society and that's really where I really came into myself and became more comfortable with the label 'bi' and like started kind of using that label and taking it. And it was only through meeting other bi people, bi and pan people in the society that I was like 'awh these people are so cool and they're really owning their sexuality and that's exactly how I'm feeling'. And I was like 'cool, I can definitely use that word’ and people were so accepting and were actually really okay with me figuring it out which was so nice. I really thought that by college stage you have to be pretty sure what your sexuality is and you have to nail it down and you have to know what words or whatever, and it was so nice to have a space where I could figure that out - so college was a great space to do that. I think in the wider community there's issues with bi-erasure and I think it doesn't come from a place of malice or anything like that but I think a lot of time bi people are butts of jokes. I know a lot of my friends who are gay men, they would make jokes of me being straight, or lesbians would often say that they wouldn't date bi women and stuff like that. And it's like casual and it often seems like people are joking and I think people forget that it is someone's actual identity sometimes so it's difficult. And it's funny, I see it in my own circle of friends and people who I love and they’re great supports and they don't mean it and that's why it's hard because I know no one is... that's the society they have been brought up in and I understand it because I felt like that about bi people when I was in school. It’s not that I had any hatred towards bi people and I just kind of thought it was funny and it was just kind of something everyone joked about because they were greedy or they were faking it, or it wasn’t really real. I think that gets fed into the community a lot and the jokes do kind of come up and it does kind of bleed into what people think about bi people. I think it also is difficult because for me anyway I'm quite feminine looking so I don't necessarily look very gay so if I'm in spaces like the George or whatever it can be really awkward because I feel like some people are looking at me and think I don't belong there but it's my space as much as it is anyone else's. So I know when I had a bf I wouldn't bring him to the George or any time he would come with me to the George I was like don't touch me when we're in the George or don't kiss me when we're in the George. I was like ‘I'm trying to be gay in the George’ because you do get those weird looks in the George; people obviously think you're a straight girl...
LL: Like why is that straight couple here?
HK: And you're just like 'no, I'm not'. And it is hard because I feel like I even do it myself, I'm guilty of it myself where you go into the George and you're like oh my god there's so many straight girls here and I'm like ‘how do I know they're straight?’ Like me of all people should not be saying that I think it’s really easy to do and it's a stereotype as well to fall into... So there's definitely some problems in the community.
LL: And does that mean then that you have to edit your behaviour depending on what space you're in? If you wouldn't kiss your boyfriend in a gay space...
HK: 100 per cent. You're in a kind of... I always see it as being in sort of limbo because whenever I'm around queer people I actually try to make myself queerer haha. Or as queer as possible - like I'm not talking about men that I'm interested in, I try to only talk about women or non-binary people I'm interested in, or even with clothes, which sounds really weird, you try to dress a little more queer whatever that means... and then at the same time whenever you're trying to do that you always have experiences that don't align with people who are gay or lesbian or whatever because I have experience of being in relationships with men so my friends who are lesbians don’t understand that and then gay men think I'm a straight woman and treat me a little differently. And then people assume that bi people have almost straight privilege - I definitely haven't found that at all haha. Because if I'm in a relationship with a man and I'm in straight places and I was with straight people I felt like part of my identity was being erased so people didn't understand a lot of my background or my history. Like my only other relationship was a four year relationship with a girl so people didn't really understand that or all my friends are gay or all my interests are quite queer so that doesn’t fit into straight places either so you end up in this weird limbo, because you're not straight and you're not gay so you end up somewhere in between...
LL: You're bi!
HK: Haha exactly! And it's difficult because in theory you would fit into both places really easily but in reality you're almost not in any of the places so there needs to be a whole separate bi place somewhere, that would be great haha.
LL: AND we need to be more accepting in all spaces.
HK: Well yeah ideally, haha.
LL: We're having a laugh and you speak so positively about everything but it must be exhausting. Even changing how you dress and look in a certain space.
HK: I think I do have really unique [experience], or not unique I'm sure there's other people who have the same experience, because I know what it’s like to be a lesbian in those places I know there's a difference so it's not that I'm kind of making up this difference in queer spaces. When I looked very queer and when I only dated women I know I’m treated differently in those spaces. And I also know when I looked very queer in straight places obviously it was an entirely different experiences. I know that there's a difference there. But I try not to get too down about it. And instead I just try to openly talk about it all which is a lot of work because it’s internalised so you're in queer spaces and I know I’m editing it so I try not to do that so much. And because I'm really open and perfectly comfortable talking about it I like to try and make as many statements to hopefully contribute to more inclusive feelings in queer spaces. Straight places are a whole different world, haha, we'll start with queer ones haha.
LL: Ehm, I love that you explain it so well. I always like to think that I'm really open and that I don't have any phobias but when you say that about kissing a guy in a place like the George... I haven't been out in a long time but when I was out before and I see a man and a woman I've been like 'awh straight people have so many spaces, why are they here?' And I'm so sorry; it's definitely something I have thought in my head before.
HK: You see the funny thing is I do that, like when I'm out and I see like... and I was just about to ay straight couple, they're not necessarily a straight couple... and I mean one of those people could be trans, or one of those or both could be bi, you don't know who those people are. And I think it's very easily done because I even do it myself like 'awh another straight couple here'. And you're like 'Jesus, why am I saying that, of all people?'
LL: We're so conditioned. Like that just shows how bisexuality is though if our first thought is not someone part of our community in a community space, it's straight people.
HK The rule of thumb I like to use for who should be in our queer spaces is if someone's being respectful and if they're knowledgeable on some level of the culture I think that it's a space where they should be welcome so I'm thinking of some straight people I know who are absolutely amazing allies and who are active allies, they're not just like 'I love gay people'. They're active allies who get involved in things or whatever. And they might be out in the George because all of their friends are queer and I think that person should be entitled to be in that space if they're respectful and understand that they're guests in that space. So it's where do you draw the line? So the likes of hen parties going there who are falling over gay men who don't want to be fallen over. Like that's where the line is.
LL: I know but then I kind of go 'bi until proven otherwise. Like I think of those straight hen parties and what if there's one person in it...’
HK: Who's bi?
LL: Or not out and it's their first time being in the space and they're like 'I've found my people!' And they wouldn't have gone in otherwise because all their friends are straight. So sometimes it's frustrating but also maybe there's that one person or like 5 people in the group who are like 'oh this is my space I've just never got to be here before'.
HK: And I also have a really easier time giving a pass to women, I'm just like 'yeah you understand oppression' haha.
LL: But also there are straight men who come into our spaces who look for... yeah feeding of the stigma that 'you just haven't met the right man' and that kind of thing. Or if you're bi you're going to have a threesome. Even if you say lesbian, 'you're going to have a threesome'. They definitely come in for that purpose.
HK: Which is so gross. Just don't.
LL: I know you said before that people think that bi people are attention seeking and greedy and this kind of attention-seeking leads into a non-trustworthy thing and then as adults it turns into ‘I wouldn't date a bi person’. What do you think about? Like they're horrible words. Like greedy, untrustworthy.
HK: I don't know where it comes from but it creeps into your thought process when you think of bi people. I think it's just because on a number level, in theory there's more people who could be an attracted to you and you could be attracted to them which in practical terms is not true, it just doesn't turn out that way. But I think that's probably where it comes from a little bit. And they're definitely hardcore stereotypes that I think a lot of people have come across if they're talking about bi people. They’ve heard greedy and attention-seeking’s a huge one. I also think it completely differs between men who are bi and women who are bi. Women who are bi are seen as very promiscuous and up for threesomes and kind of attention-seeking or trying to get men's attention and then men who are bi are always automatically assumed that they're gay and just won't say that they're gay. `
LL: Yeah that's so true.
HK: Which is crap like. So I think it's a huge stereotype and it bleeds into your internal narrative, it has to like. So I find myself even trying to make sure I’m not contributing to that stereotype which is awful to have to be policing yourself that way. You're kind of saying well I don't want people to think that... like I'm always talking to people or I don't want to be seen that I'm dating a lot of people at once and you try to balance out the gender of people who you're dating. I find myself doing that too often. Kind of going like okay I dated a guy so I should date... and you're kind of adding it up in your head. And I don't know a lot of other sexualities who have that much pressure to keep an equilibrium of who you're dating and how much you can influence how people perceive you. Because I think a lot of the time I like to say that I'm a gold star bisexual and that's a horrible term, but I always joke and say that because the kind of ratio of people I've dated is usually equal and usually stays that equal and when I go through phases when I more into women or more into people who are doing something cool with gender and then I could have a phase when I am just interested in men for a little while and that's how it usually works for me. So I think in some ways that's easier for people to accept. I think it's harder when people want... it's a weird thing that people always want you to put a percentage on it and it doesn't really work like that at all. I think there's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how bisexuality works, people think it's a mix of different sexualities but it's its own sexuality in its own right. It's like asking what's the percentage you're into brown hair people or blonds but it depends on who I meet or where I am. It also depends on what spaces you’re in. So I'm meeting queer people more than I'm meeting straight people because of the spaces I'm in. For some bi people maybe they're mainly around straight people so they’ll mainly be in those kind of relationships than someone who isn’t. So it's exhausting I think because it really depends on the environment you’re in.
LL: So it's not just preference, it also depends on who you're around.
HK: Yeah but it’s like anyone else, you’re going to date people who make sense to date within the circles that you're in. That's for everyone. So that would kind of influence how a bi person is perceived. For the most part I'm accepted quite well in queer spaces because I speak queer. Like I have a lot of queer knowledge and all of the circles that I'm in are queer. My interests are very queer so it's easy to accept me into a queer space but even still, even as quite a queer bi woman those stereotypes do still come at you and people do still kind of it as a joke and it's something that's hard to joke about because it's a real thing that people think. Like you could take a joke but if someone joking saying you're greedy, but then a lot of people do actually think I'm greedy so it's not really a joke. So those things definitely come up. And I think more so in the queer community than in the straight community weirdly enough. I think it's funny when people think that there's more people that you could date but then you have to eliminate so many people that are crap towards bi people haha. So like so many men you meet, when you mention bi they talk about threesomes and you're like 'ewww, that's not where this was going at all like'. So that's kind of a right off and then there's a lot of lesbians who want to know if you've slept with a man they almost feel weird about it and then they don't want to date bi women or they're like afraid that you're going to leave them for a man. There's a number of different people that you automatically have to eliminate because they're gross about your sexuality hahaha, So it ends up you're just looking for another bi person to date like.
LL: I was going to say, is that how it ends up?
HK: It's the dream.
LL: But we have see through the helpline, not just on the phones but in all the different areas including the wellness groups and different events and emails and stuff, that the second highest demographic who contact us are bi women. So do you see that there is the rise of bi? Are you seeing more people being out as bi? Not even out but outspoken as bi? Most people I meet now are like 'I'm bi'.
HK: I think again it's depends what spaces I'm in and because I'm really open about being bi I find a lot of people tell me that they're bi or they're just like 'oh I've been thinking about it'. and I'm like 'yes, it's fine you can do it'. So yeah I think I do hear of more people saying the word ‘bi’. I know for years I was bi but I didn’t use the word ‘bi’, I rejected labels altogether which I think is a huge thing that bi people do because I know when I first realised that that's how my sexuality was working, I kind of went 'awh I don't care about labels and I don't want a label' and that kind of thing, which is valid, some people don’t want labels but once you reject the label you almost reject a community because without a label you don't know where you fit in a community. So for a long time I did just reject labels altogether and I think a lot of people who are bi do that too for the first while. But I am hearing the word bi a lot more and I know it's something that even myself who is really open and proud but it's a word that I find difficult to say sometimes. Depending on the spaces I'm in, in spaces where I'm quite comfortable I can say it but even with my family I didn't use the word that much still, or around new people or straight people I would use queer more because it's almost very political and they're not going to ask any questions because they feel like they're going to say the wrong thing haha. So you can just say queer and people can think what they think. But for bi I think it's a hard word to use because there's such a stigma attached to it.
LL: It's a loaded word.
HK: Yeah it's a loaded word, it's something I think I love when I hear people say that they're bi because I think it takes a lot of confidence and a lot of work on yourself to be able to come to a point where you can say the word out loud. For a lot of queer identities it's the same thing but my experience with bi is that it's a hard word to use because it almost feels like you're reclaiming it because it can seem like an insult sometimes. So it's something I’m working on, I'm still working on it now and it's something that I’ll probably continue to work on for years like is being comfortable using the word so whenever I get the chance to use it I try to use it when I can like. It definitely changes in whatever groups you're in, it does change.
LL: So more editing...
HK Yeah!
LL: And you use it as much as you can, have you found using the word and speaking about, have you found that helpful with figuring out your identity or like getting confidence it it? Does it get easier with time?
HK: I think the interesting thing I found is that the confidence in your sexuality, for me anyway how it worked was, once I became really comfortable with accepting the fact that sexuality is not, for me, black and white at all and it fluctuates and it changes and that's valid. Once I had allowed myself to accept that then the words kind of are another thing that comes with it. So for a long time I was ashamed that, again going back to the stigma of young people coming out and not really knowing what their sexuality is, there's this huge stigma against people not knowing, which there's actually nothing wrong with you not knowing and then even when you do know... So I know I’m bi, but the way that works changes all the time so once my confidence grew at accepting that the rest of it became a little bit easier like. Once you become a little bit more self-aware of yourself the rest becomes a bit easier because if you accept yourself it doesn't really matter as much what people around you are accepting or not accepting because if you have that in yourself you can kind of take or leave what people are going to think and you can brush it over your shoulder a little bit more like. It's a long journey though, for anyone who is kind of struggling or thinks they might be bi or whatever, I think a lot of it, for me anyway it would have been helpful to not necessarily try and tell people before I was ready to. So don't feel pressured into needing a label. So although the label is important to me now and it's something that is important so you have a community don't rush into trying to use a label, let yourself sit and try different labels out and see which one fits. I think it’s allowing yourself to just take a minute, however long it might be, and figure out what words or what label, if any, works for you and not to feel pressured to have to have one to be in the community. Because by way of you not being straight or having to figure it out you belong in the community already so it's perfectly okay to not feel comfortable yet. And queer is a really good one to use in waiting for one because queer is really an umbrella term and it's more like a political word. Like queerness is the political part of the community so I think if you're any way inclined to be interested in the history or the culture use queer when you're trying to figure out what this sexuality actually is or gender identity is.
LL: Queer can be really good because it can be gender or sexuality so when people aren’t fully comfortable yet but they know they're not necessarily cis or they're not necessarily straight it can be a word that, not necessarily a stepping stone, but it can also be a stepping stone or just a 'I'm part of this community but that's as far as... that's what I'm giving you right now'. Then just also for bi people listening to this that are - like you mentioned that you had internalised biphobia and you spoke about your experiences of bi-erasure - for anyone going through that do you have any tips or advice for those who do identify as bisexual but they're encountering it?
HK: I think it's really helpful to know other bi people. Like that's obviously hard for some people that’s not possible. Like if there's any way that even if you don't know them listening to other bi people. So I'm sure there's podcasts... like this one! Or like bi specific podcasts, I'm sure there's some of them floating around or like even if you can't have a voice or can't voice bisexuality yet it's great to hear someone else do it. I know that's what helped me first, hearing other people being bi and owning it. So seeing someone else do that and then besides that try not to be hard on yourself because I think it's hard to figure out anything that's non-binary in this world because everything we're told is binary. So sexuality that isn't set in stone or is a little bit more fluid can be really hard to accept so just not being hard on yourself and not expecting it to look a certain way really helps. So just relaxing a little bit and maybe not putting so much pressure on yourself to figure it out will help. It's all in time, I think a lot of people when they hear me talk about sexuality and they're like 'awh you have it all figured out’ but I still don't and I have no problem saying that, there's something that are still really confusing and there’s some things that I doubt about myself still and I have been out as bi for four or five years so it really is a journey and it's okay to be somewhere in the middle of that journey or figuring it all out is fine.
LL: Thanks so much for saying that you are still figuring it out because I think some people are fantastic speakers but they do have it all figured out and people are like 'well that's never going to be me, like that's too far, I can't get there’. And what about for people who don't identify as bi and may non-maliciously accidentally contributed to bi-erasure or biphobia?
HK: I would maybe just take a look at the language that you're using and where it comes from. So I think it's important to really reflect on what you actually think about bi people and that can be a hard place to go because sometimes it's hard to accept that there's any internalised phobia in you but it's like that speech that Panti did, we're all a little homophobic, like we're a all a little biphobic and that's okay but to just accept that maybe and then not necessarily edit yourself but be able to be more mindful of the language that you're using around bi people and think about what stigma or what you're putting on someone else when you say that. And try to just put yourself in someone else's shoes because I think everyone in queer spaces understands what it like to not be accepted in a place or to have to figure yourself out so I don’t think anyone in our community would want to make someone feel that same way within our own community so I think recognising that that's something you could be doing by making those jokes. And then really evaluate why you're telling those jokes and what they could be doing to someone is a good way to start and talk to people that you are know are bi and get their opinions on language and see what is offensive and what isn't. Like some things are funny, there's some bi jokes that are funny but it's the way it's said so just talk to bi people and be mindful of the language that you're using but that goes for anything really.
LL: That's fantastic to be mindful of the language, I think of people... I hope even listening today it will resonate with a lot of people because a lot of people that use that language I don't even know if they think they are biphobic. I think if they think about it they're like 'oh I never thought about this, why do I say it?’ I also grew up with that thing that bi people are greedy and attention-seeking and stuff and then when I had my first bi friends she was like 'oh would you ever go out with a bi woman?' And I was like 'no because she’d leave me for a man'. And she was like 'what makes you think that?' I was like 'ehhh... I don't know' And we looked at all the other things and I was like 'oh well you're actually the first bi person I know so I don't know where I got that from’. And I realised I was just saying the words that I had heard I didn't actually feel that way.
HK: I never try to get annoyed at people who make those kinds of jokes because it really is, we're just repeating stuff we've heard. It's like anything else; it's like people using gay in a negative way. It's like people saying 'awh it's so gay'. No one's actually talking about sexuality there it's just a phrase that they’ve heard and that's been said. So I think a healthy way to point out and go 'why did you actually say that or where did that come from?' is a great way to kind of stop someone and go 'oh I actually don't know why I say that thing or whatever’. So don't be hard on yourself anyone who is using those words or those jokes or whatever because society has told us to say those things. It's something that's been reinforced over years but kind of trying to look at it is a great place to start and could make a huge difference if languages change perception changed with it.
Outro: The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line’s Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy and we would like to thank Hannah Kelly for speaking to us for this episode. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community. If you’ve been affected by anything in this podcast you can reach us at 018729911or contact us on our online chat service at www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Dublin Lesbian Line is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer whether it’s 2 euro or 100 hundred euro it makes a big difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.
Hannah Kelly (HK): I suppose one of the things why it makes sense for me to be doing something like this is that I'm hugely into activism and hugely into kind of making spaces for people to see themselves represented and it just so happens that I come from a lot of different groups that aren't very represented. But I also feel quite comfortable talking about those things quite openly so I've tried to do that whenever I can. So I think being bi is something that a lot of people don't hear about that much and it's something that even in the community it's not really talked about that much so any opportunity I can to talk about bi things I jump on it.
Laura Louise Condell (LLC): So how do you know DLL and what made you want to do the podcast? Apart from me begging you?
HK: I found out about it through the facebook group, the LGBT+ women's... you know that one [LGBTQ+ 20s30s ladies*]. And there was an ad post by yourself I think about a wellness group for women in the community and it was something that I was like 'oh my god, this is exactly what I've been looking for'. And it was absolutely amazing, I learned a lot about myself through it but I actually ended up coming out in work after doing the course so it was absolutely amazing and really perfectly timed. So that's how I found out about DLL. And of course I spoke at Soapbox sessions and now I'm here so that's how I kind of found out about it and started using the services and stuff.
LL: Brilliant, thank you. Would you mind saying what the soapbox sessions were?
HK: I would probably describe it as it's a group forum kind of situation, where speakers get up and speak about mental health or kind of loosely around mental health, because it can cover a lot of different topics within the community. Ehm, it’s during Pride and it's such an amazing experience and everyone should go, it's like such a feel good event. And even though mental health can be quite heavy to talk about sometimes, you’re kind of left feeling 'awh I learned so much today' and feeling really good and listening to everyone's stories was really insightful and stuff. So would recommend it, it's really hard to describe but would recommend anyone to go.
LL: So you're here today to talk to us about bi-erasure and biphobia and your experiences coming out as a bi woman and finding your place as a bi woman, is that okay to say?
HK: Yeah!
LL: So would you like to talk to us about you realised you're bisexual? And I love when you talk about your double coming out, could you talk about that a bit if you don't mind?
HK: Yeah haha, so when I was 15 I was in my first relationship with a girl and I kind of really didn't think about sexuality at all, I was just like 'okay cool I'm in a relationship with a girl, that means I'm a lesbian so I didn't really tell anybody either, like all my friends were gay when I was young... well they still are now, I don't know why I act as if they're not now haha. So I kind of just like was completely with that but I didn't tell my Mam and Dad, was kind of like 'awh I'll just leave it how it is for the minute, no need to tell anybody'. And they actually found this scrapbook thing my then girlfriend had made for me and it was like so cheesy, pictures of the two of us, poetry written and like love poems or whatever... it was really cringey. And ehm, so my Mam and Dad called me into the sitting room and had this scrapbook there and were like 'so what's this about, are you a lesbian?' And I kind of just went 'oh ehh, yeah I guess'. So that was kind of the end of that conversation, they were crying, I cried, it was like a big huge emotional thing and we all moved on and it was fine. My girlfriend was practically living in our house then and it was grand and I never really thought about it again. And then I was single again maybe four years later, and kind of throughout the end of my relationship I had kind of start noticing that I was feeling an attraction... I don't know if I would call it attraction but I had an interest in guys and I didn't really know what to do with it, I was just kind of like 'I don't know what that is so I'll just leave that be'. And I was pretty much, I had decided within myself that 'that's too confusing for me to deal with, I'll just be a lesbian’, because it's not as if I wasn't attracted to women so I was like 'I'll just be attracted to women, that's fine'. But it's not something you can ignore so I said 'I'll just try it out and I'll go on a date with a guy'. So I went on this date with this guy who's a distant mutual friend and it was such a bad date, it was so bad. I always make the joke that it gave me an insight into how bad dating men would be but I was definitely attracted to him though so I couldn't deny that I was definitely attracted to men. So I decided to tell my Mam but I never really used the word bisexual. I kind of found it hard to use the word so I just kind of told her I would now be dating guys too. And it was awkward and it's still kind of awkward and I kind of attribute some of it to how I came out because at the time I was struggling with the label, I didn't use it and tried to make it not a big deal at all and kind of was like 'awh we don't need to... it's just this weird thing, it's fine, we can move on'. And I think that's how it sat in my family for a long time, it was just like 'no one understands this; Hannah doesn't even understand what this is so we'll just not even talk about it'. So that's why my second coming out was not as easy and because I wasn't as comfortable with the label at the time. I think with lesbian I kind of really owned that label and was really comfortable in it straight away because I knew I wasn't straight so that word is what I was given and I was like 'cool!'. And then figuring out that it wasn't the word that was right and I didn't really know. I think almost prematurely came out the second time so it wasn't a comfortable thing so I think the second coming out was a bit more difficult and awkward.
LL: That happens for a lot of people, they come out when they're still coming to terms with... and you shouldn't have to know everything about your identity but if you haven't got all the answers immediately it can be really hard. And then it can be hard to revisit it then with people. It shouldn't be your one chance to say it and get it right and then everyone takes your lead then... people are still figuring it out and if you don't know what it is other people don't know what it is it's harder to work it out with people.
HK: I think it was a huge problem for me because when I was in school I was very much a lesbian, I didn't the whole shave my hair thing, I was like... I was very much... people knew I was a lesbian and I went to an all girls schools and I was actually the head girl in my final year and everyone was cool with me being gay, literally no one cared the school was really cool. But I remember all the girls used to ask me questions and I was fine with it but they used to be like 'how do you know you're a lesbian?’ And I was like 'I just am'. And at that stage that was my truth, I wasn't lying like so I really thought I would never be with men and I was just like 'awh no, the thought of that makes me feel sick' or whatever. And I remember one thing really stuck with me was, one of the girls in my school said to me that she was talking to her Mam, I don't know why she was talking to her Mam about me, but she was saying that there was a lesbian in her year and her Mam said 'oh she's too young to know if she's a lesbian yet'. And I went on this big rant that you know your sexuality or whatever... And then I was only thinking about it a few years later when I was going to come out again that I was like 'I've just proved a lot of people right' and I felt a lot of guilt because I was like 'I am proving that young people don't know their sexuality’ - which is obviously not true. A lot of people do know their sexuality from a young age and it's... I think the reason why I didn't know or why I got a bit confused at the start is because bisexual isn’t really seen as an option when you're that young.
LL: And do you think that because so many people later come out as being gay first come out as being bisexual do you think that has made it harder for bisexual people?
HK: I think people differ on opinion on this. I don't have a huge problem with people doing that because I mean if you need a stepping stone and that makes you feel more comfortable I don't see a problem with it. I mean obviously yeah, it probably does add a bit of stigma around bi people if people see it as a stepping stone but I also don't think it's fair to deny someone whatever comfort or whatever they need to be able to come out and if that's the way people are comfortable doing it then fine. And I also think a lot of people who come out as bi first think they're bi first or they could be bi at that stage in their life. Because as I said I was a lesbian, really at that time I was not interested in men at all. Sexuality is definitely a fluid thing. I wouldn't be denying anyone that or I don't have a problem with anyone who used that as a stepping stone even if they knowingly used it as a stepping stone. Like no one does it maliciously towards bi people, it's an internal thing where they do whatever they can to make it as easy for the people that they're coming out to. The joke is though that no one is more okay with bi people than they are hahah. So like it's actually not more comforting for anyone.
LL: And the thing is if there was no stigma around any sexuality then there wouldn’t be need for things like stepping stones and it wouldn't feed into a stigma because there would be none. And that's a lovely way to put it as well that what makes people more comfortable... and a lot of people do think they're bi and later... or not think even sorry, they might be bi and then they might come out later on... and then of course that can change again as well - it's not necessarily set. As you were saying some people know from when they were young and they feel that way their whole lives but a lot of people especially more and more now are able to acknowledge that it's not so binary for them. So your two coming outs with your family, how did that go with your friends? You said all your friends were gay and still are, how did you find coming out as bisexual to your gay community or your queer community?
HK: Yeah so it was kind the timing of when I came out the second time worked. So my first relationship with my ex girlfriend ended just when I finished school. So that summer my three closest friends were straight girls and I think I told them that I was interested in guys, and I think they would have been quite naive to anything like that and so I was I really at that stage, so they kind of like were like 'awh cool, Hannah's straight now so that's cool’. So they were fine with it and I didn't really know what was going on so was just like 'cool, we'll just go with this now'. So that was fine so then when I started college I kind of really eager to not be... like to not go in and have the same image as I had in school because that didn't fit me anymore so I was like 'okay I don't really know how to go into college and what way I'm supposed to act'. And I also was thinking of how I was in school and how almost anti-bi people I was in school I was like 'I don't want to be shoved off or I don't want to intrude into someone's space' so I just kind of went into college and I was happily just not going to mention my sexuality at all for the whole three years I was there, I was like 'it's fine, it just won't come up' which is so naive to think now. I just really think that's it's fine...
LL: I'll just go study haha.
HK: Yeah! Haha. I'll just study... And I was still kind of like 'I might date girls or guys I just won't tell anyone it's going to be fine'. But it just so happened - I swear to god this is a thing with queer people, you just find other queer people no matter where you go - so it just ended up my group of friends that I made were all queer. So we all just were and I remember we were talking and they were like 'you should come to this [LGBTQ+] society'. And it just didn't feel comfortable, I just didn't really know. I was like 'these people are cool with it but I don't know if a society of people are going to be cool with it and I was like I still don't understand what language I'm supposed to be using yet'. Ehm, but it ended up then in second year I kind of got up the courage to join the society and that's really where I really came into myself and became more comfortable with the label 'bi' and like started kind of using that label and taking it. And it was only through meeting other bi people, bi and pan people in the society that I was like 'awh these people are so cool and they're really owning their sexuality and that's exactly how I'm feeling'. And I was like 'cool, I can definitely use that word’ and people were so accepting and were actually really okay with me figuring it out which was so nice. I really thought that by college stage you have to be pretty sure what your sexuality is and you have to nail it down and you have to know what words or whatever, and it was so nice to have a space where I could figure that out - so college was a great space to do that. I think in the wider community there's issues with bi-erasure and I think it doesn't come from a place of malice or anything like that but I think a lot of time bi people are butts of jokes. I know a lot of my friends who are gay men, they would make jokes of me being straight, or lesbians would often say that they wouldn't date bi women and stuff like that. And it's like casual and it often seems like people are joking and I think people forget that it is someone's actual identity sometimes so it's difficult. And it's funny, I see it in my own circle of friends and people who I love and they’re great supports and they don't mean it and that's why it's hard because I know no one is... that's the society they have been brought up in and I understand it because I felt like that about bi people when I was in school. It’s not that I had any hatred towards bi people and I just kind of thought it was funny and it was just kind of something everyone joked about because they were greedy or they were faking it, or it wasn’t really real. I think that gets fed into the community a lot and the jokes do kind of come up and it does kind of bleed into what people think about bi people. I think it also is difficult because for me anyway I'm quite feminine looking so I don't necessarily look very gay so if I'm in spaces like the George or whatever it can be really awkward because I feel like some people are looking at me and think I don't belong there but it's my space as much as it is anyone else's. So I know when I had a bf I wouldn't bring him to the George or any time he would come with me to the George I was like don't touch me when we're in the George or don't kiss me when we're in the George. I was like ‘I'm trying to be gay in the George’ because you do get those weird looks in the George; people obviously think you're a straight girl...
LL: Like why is that straight couple here?
HK: And you're just like 'no, I'm not'. And it is hard because I feel like I even do it myself, I'm guilty of it myself where you go into the George and you're like oh my god there's so many straight girls here and I'm like ‘how do I know they're straight?’ Like me of all people should not be saying that I think it’s really easy to do and it's a stereotype as well to fall into... So there's definitely some problems in the community.
LL: And does that mean then that you have to edit your behaviour depending on what space you're in? If you wouldn't kiss your boyfriend in a gay space...
HK: 100 per cent. You're in a kind of... I always see it as being in sort of limbo because whenever I'm around queer people I actually try to make myself queerer haha. Or as queer as possible - like I'm not talking about men that I'm interested in, I try to only talk about women or non-binary people I'm interested in, or even with clothes, which sounds really weird, you try to dress a little more queer whatever that means... and then at the same time whenever you're trying to do that you always have experiences that don't align with people who are gay or lesbian or whatever because I have experience of being in relationships with men so my friends who are lesbians don’t understand that and then gay men think I'm a straight woman and treat me a little differently. And then people assume that bi people have almost straight privilege - I definitely haven't found that at all haha. Because if I'm in a relationship with a man and I'm in straight places and I was with straight people I felt like part of my identity was being erased so people didn't understand a lot of my background or my history. Like my only other relationship was a four year relationship with a girl so people didn't really understand that or all my friends are gay or all my interests are quite queer so that doesn’t fit into straight places either so you end up in this weird limbo, because you're not straight and you're not gay so you end up somewhere in between...
LL: You're bi!
HK: Haha exactly! And it's difficult because in theory you would fit into both places really easily but in reality you're almost not in any of the places so there needs to be a whole separate bi place somewhere, that would be great haha.
LL: AND we need to be more accepting in all spaces.
HK: Well yeah ideally, haha.
LL: We're having a laugh and you speak so positively about everything but it must be exhausting. Even changing how you dress and look in a certain space.
HK: I think I do have really unique [experience], or not unique I'm sure there's other people who have the same experience, because I know what it’s like to be a lesbian in those places I know there's a difference so it's not that I'm kind of making up this difference in queer spaces. When I looked very queer and when I only dated women I know I’m treated differently in those spaces. And I also know when I looked very queer in straight places obviously it was an entirely different experiences. I know that there's a difference there. But I try not to get too down about it. And instead I just try to openly talk about it all which is a lot of work because it’s internalised so you're in queer spaces and I know I’m editing it so I try not to do that so much. And because I'm really open and perfectly comfortable talking about it I like to try and make as many statements to hopefully contribute to more inclusive feelings in queer spaces. Straight places are a whole different world, haha, we'll start with queer ones haha.
LL: Ehm, I love that you explain it so well. I always like to think that I'm really open and that I don't have any phobias but when you say that about kissing a guy in a place like the George... I haven't been out in a long time but when I was out before and I see a man and a woman I've been like 'awh straight people have so many spaces, why are they here?' And I'm so sorry; it's definitely something I have thought in my head before.
HK: You see the funny thing is I do that, like when I'm out and I see like... and I was just about to ay straight couple, they're not necessarily a straight couple... and I mean one of those people could be trans, or one of those or both could be bi, you don't know who those people are. And I think it's very easily done because I even do it myself like 'awh another straight couple here'. And you're like 'Jesus, why am I saying that, of all people?'
LL: We're so conditioned. Like that just shows how bisexuality is though if our first thought is not someone part of our community in a community space, it's straight people.
HK The rule of thumb I like to use for who should be in our queer spaces is if someone's being respectful and if they're knowledgeable on some level of the culture I think that it's a space where they should be welcome so I'm thinking of some straight people I know who are absolutely amazing allies and who are active allies, they're not just like 'I love gay people'. They're active allies who get involved in things or whatever. And they might be out in the George because all of their friends are queer and I think that person should be entitled to be in that space if they're respectful and understand that they're guests in that space. So it's where do you draw the line? So the likes of hen parties going there who are falling over gay men who don't want to be fallen over. Like that's where the line is.
LL: I know but then I kind of go 'bi until proven otherwise. Like I think of those straight hen parties and what if there's one person in it...’
HK: Who's bi?
LL: Or not out and it's their first time being in the space and they're like 'I've found my people!' And they wouldn't have gone in otherwise because all their friends are straight. So sometimes it's frustrating but also maybe there's that one person or like 5 people in the group who are like 'oh this is my space I've just never got to be here before'.
HK: And I also have a really easier time giving a pass to women, I'm just like 'yeah you understand oppression' haha.
LL: But also there are straight men who come into our spaces who look for... yeah feeding of the stigma that 'you just haven't met the right man' and that kind of thing. Or if you're bi you're going to have a threesome. Even if you say lesbian, 'you're going to have a threesome'. They definitely come in for that purpose.
HK: Which is so gross. Just don't.
LL: I know you said before that people think that bi people are attention seeking and greedy and this kind of attention-seeking leads into a non-trustworthy thing and then as adults it turns into ‘I wouldn't date a bi person’. What do you think about? Like they're horrible words. Like greedy, untrustworthy.
HK: I don't know where it comes from but it creeps into your thought process when you think of bi people. I think it's just because on a number level, in theory there's more people who could be an attracted to you and you could be attracted to them which in practical terms is not true, it just doesn't turn out that way. But I think that's probably where it comes from a little bit. And they're definitely hardcore stereotypes that I think a lot of people have come across if they're talking about bi people. They’ve heard greedy and attention-seeking’s a huge one. I also think it completely differs between men who are bi and women who are bi. Women who are bi are seen as very promiscuous and up for threesomes and kind of attention-seeking or trying to get men's attention and then men who are bi are always automatically assumed that they're gay and just won't say that they're gay. `
LL: Yeah that's so true.
HK: Which is crap like. So I think it's a huge stereotype and it bleeds into your internal narrative, it has to like. So I find myself even trying to make sure I’m not contributing to that stereotype which is awful to have to be policing yourself that way. You're kind of saying well I don't want people to think that... like I'm always talking to people or I don't want to be seen that I'm dating a lot of people at once and you try to balance out the gender of people who you're dating. I find myself doing that too often. Kind of going like okay I dated a guy so I should date... and you're kind of adding it up in your head. And I don't know a lot of other sexualities who have that much pressure to keep an equilibrium of who you're dating and how much you can influence how people perceive you. Because I think a lot of the time I like to say that I'm a gold star bisexual and that's a horrible term, but I always joke and say that because the kind of ratio of people I've dated is usually equal and usually stays that equal and when I go through phases when I more into women or more into people who are doing something cool with gender and then I could have a phase when I am just interested in men for a little while and that's how it usually works for me. So I think in some ways that's easier for people to accept. I think it's harder when people want... it's a weird thing that people always want you to put a percentage on it and it doesn't really work like that at all. I think there's just a fundamental misunderstanding of how bisexuality works, people think it's a mix of different sexualities but it's its own sexuality in its own right. It's like asking what's the percentage you're into brown hair people or blonds but it depends on who I meet or where I am. It also depends on what spaces you’re in. So I'm meeting queer people more than I'm meeting straight people because of the spaces I'm in. For some bi people maybe they're mainly around straight people so they’ll mainly be in those kind of relationships than someone who isn’t. So it's exhausting I think because it really depends on the environment you’re in.
LL: So it's not just preference, it also depends on who you're around.
HK: Yeah but it’s like anyone else, you’re going to date people who make sense to date within the circles that you're in. That's for everyone. So that would kind of influence how a bi person is perceived. For the most part I'm accepted quite well in queer spaces because I speak queer. Like I have a lot of queer knowledge and all of the circles that I'm in are queer. My interests are very queer so it's easy to accept me into a queer space but even still, even as quite a queer bi woman those stereotypes do still come at you and people do still kind of it as a joke and it's something that's hard to joke about because it's a real thing that people think. Like you could take a joke but if someone joking saying you're greedy, but then a lot of people do actually think I'm greedy so it's not really a joke. So those things definitely come up. And I think more so in the queer community than in the straight community weirdly enough. I think it's funny when people think that there's more people that you could date but then you have to eliminate so many people that are crap towards bi people haha. So like so many men you meet, when you mention bi they talk about threesomes and you're like 'ewww, that's not where this was going at all like'. So that's kind of a right off and then there's a lot of lesbians who want to know if you've slept with a man they almost feel weird about it and then they don't want to date bi women or they're like afraid that you're going to leave them for a man. There's a number of different people that you automatically have to eliminate because they're gross about your sexuality hahaha, So it ends up you're just looking for another bi person to date like.
LL: I was going to say, is that how it ends up?
HK: It's the dream.
LL: But we have see through the helpline, not just on the phones but in all the different areas including the wellness groups and different events and emails and stuff, that the second highest demographic who contact us are bi women. So do you see that there is the rise of bi? Are you seeing more people being out as bi? Not even out but outspoken as bi? Most people I meet now are like 'I'm bi'.
HK: I think again it's depends what spaces I'm in and because I'm really open about being bi I find a lot of people tell me that they're bi or they're just like 'oh I've been thinking about it'. and I'm like 'yes, it's fine you can do it'. So yeah I think I do hear of more people saying the word ‘bi’. I know for years I was bi but I didn’t use the word ‘bi’, I rejected labels altogether which I think is a huge thing that bi people do because I know when I first realised that that's how my sexuality was working, I kind of went 'awh I don't care about labels and I don't want a label' and that kind of thing, which is valid, some people don’t want labels but once you reject the label you almost reject a community because without a label you don't know where you fit in a community. So for a long time I did just reject labels altogether and I think a lot of people who are bi do that too for the first while. But I am hearing the word bi a lot more and I know it's something that even myself who is really open and proud but it's a word that I find difficult to say sometimes. Depending on the spaces I'm in, in spaces where I'm quite comfortable I can say it but even with my family I didn't use the word that much still, or around new people or straight people I would use queer more because it's almost very political and they're not going to ask any questions because they feel like they're going to say the wrong thing haha. So you can just say queer and people can think what they think. But for bi I think it's a hard word to use because there's such a stigma attached to it.
LL: It's a loaded word.
HK: Yeah it's a loaded word, it's something I think I love when I hear people say that they're bi because I think it takes a lot of confidence and a lot of work on yourself to be able to come to a point where you can say the word out loud. For a lot of queer identities it's the same thing but my experience with bi is that it's a hard word to use because it almost feels like you're reclaiming it because it can seem like an insult sometimes. So it's something I’m working on, I'm still working on it now and it's something that I’ll probably continue to work on for years like is being comfortable using the word so whenever I get the chance to use it I try to use it when I can like. It definitely changes in whatever groups you're in, it does change.
LL: So more editing...
HK Yeah!
LL: And you use it as much as you can, have you found using the word and speaking about, have you found that helpful with figuring out your identity or like getting confidence it it? Does it get easier with time?
HK: I think the interesting thing I found is that the confidence in your sexuality, for me anyway how it worked was, once I became really comfortable with accepting the fact that sexuality is not, for me, black and white at all and it fluctuates and it changes and that's valid. Once I had allowed myself to accept that then the words kind of are another thing that comes with it. So for a long time I was ashamed that, again going back to the stigma of young people coming out and not really knowing what their sexuality is, there's this huge stigma against people not knowing, which there's actually nothing wrong with you not knowing and then even when you do know... So I know I’m bi, but the way that works changes all the time so once my confidence grew at accepting that the rest of it became a little bit easier like. Once you become a little bit more self-aware of yourself the rest becomes a bit easier because if you accept yourself it doesn't really matter as much what people around you are accepting or not accepting because if you have that in yourself you can kind of take or leave what people are going to think and you can brush it over your shoulder a little bit more like. It's a long journey though, for anyone who is kind of struggling or thinks they might be bi or whatever, I think a lot of it, for me anyway it would have been helpful to not necessarily try and tell people before I was ready to. So don't feel pressured into needing a label. So although the label is important to me now and it's something that is important so you have a community don't rush into trying to use a label, let yourself sit and try different labels out and see which one fits. I think it’s allowing yourself to just take a minute, however long it might be, and figure out what words or what label, if any, works for you and not to feel pressured to have to have one to be in the community. Because by way of you not being straight or having to figure it out you belong in the community already so it's perfectly okay to not feel comfortable yet. And queer is a really good one to use in waiting for one because queer is really an umbrella term and it's more like a political word. Like queerness is the political part of the community so I think if you're any way inclined to be interested in the history or the culture use queer when you're trying to figure out what this sexuality actually is or gender identity is.
LL: Queer can be really good because it can be gender or sexuality so when people aren’t fully comfortable yet but they know they're not necessarily cis or they're not necessarily straight it can be a word that, not necessarily a stepping stone, but it can also be a stepping stone or just a 'I'm part of this community but that's as far as... that's what I'm giving you right now'. Then just also for bi people listening to this that are - like you mentioned that you had internalised biphobia and you spoke about your experiences of bi-erasure - for anyone going through that do you have any tips or advice for those who do identify as bisexual but they're encountering it?
HK: I think it's really helpful to know other bi people. Like that's obviously hard for some people that’s not possible. Like if there's any way that even if you don't know them listening to other bi people. So I'm sure there's podcasts... like this one! Or like bi specific podcasts, I'm sure there's some of them floating around or like even if you can't have a voice or can't voice bisexuality yet it's great to hear someone else do it. I know that's what helped me first, hearing other people being bi and owning it. So seeing someone else do that and then besides that try not to be hard on yourself because I think it's hard to figure out anything that's non-binary in this world because everything we're told is binary. So sexuality that isn't set in stone or is a little bit more fluid can be really hard to accept so just not being hard on yourself and not expecting it to look a certain way really helps. So just relaxing a little bit and maybe not putting so much pressure on yourself to figure it out will help. It's all in time, I think a lot of people when they hear me talk about sexuality and they're like 'awh you have it all figured out’ but I still don't and I have no problem saying that, there's something that are still really confusing and there’s some things that I doubt about myself still and I have been out as bi for four or five years so it really is a journey and it's okay to be somewhere in the middle of that journey or figuring it all out is fine.
LL: Thanks so much for saying that you are still figuring it out because I think some people are fantastic speakers but they do have it all figured out and people are like 'well that's never going to be me, like that's too far, I can't get there’. And what about for people who don't identify as bi and may non-maliciously accidentally contributed to bi-erasure or biphobia?
HK: I would maybe just take a look at the language that you're using and where it comes from. So I think it's important to really reflect on what you actually think about bi people and that can be a hard place to go because sometimes it's hard to accept that there's any internalised phobia in you but it's like that speech that Panti did, we're all a little homophobic, like we're a all a little biphobic and that's okay but to just accept that maybe and then not necessarily edit yourself but be able to be more mindful of the language that you're using around bi people and think about what stigma or what you're putting on someone else when you say that. And try to just put yourself in someone else's shoes because I think everyone in queer spaces understands what it like to not be accepted in a place or to have to figure yourself out so I don’t think anyone in our community would want to make someone feel that same way within our own community so I think recognising that that's something you could be doing by making those jokes. And then really evaluate why you're telling those jokes and what they could be doing to someone is a good way to start and talk to people that you are know are bi and get their opinions on language and see what is offensive and what isn't. Like some things are funny, there's some bi jokes that are funny but it's the way it's said so just talk to bi people and be mindful of the language that you're using but that goes for anything really.
LL: That's fantastic to be mindful of the language, I think of people... I hope even listening today it will resonate with a lot of people because a lot of people that use that language I don't even know if they think they are biphobic. I think if they think about it they're like 'oh I never thought about this, why do I say it?’ I also grew up with that thing that bi people are greedy and attention-seeking and stuff and then when I had my first bi friends she was like 'oh would you ever go out with a bi woman?' And I was like 'no because she’d leave me for a man'. And she was like 'what makes you think that?' I was like 'ehhh... I don't know' And we looked at all the other things and I was like 'oh well you're actually the first bi person I know so I don't know where I got that from’. And I realised I was just saying the words that I had heard I didn't actually feel that way.
HK: I never try to get annoyed at people who make those kinds of jokes because it really is, we're just repeating stuff we've heard. It's like anything else; it's like people using gay in a negative way. It's like people saying 'awh it's so gay'. No one's actually talking about sexuality there it's just a phrase that they’ve heard and that's been said. So I think a healthy way to point out and go 'why did you actually say that or where did that come from?' is a great way to kind of stop someone and go 'oh I actually don't know why I say that thing or whatever’. So don't be hard on yourself anyone who is using those words or those jokes or whatever because society has told us to say those things. It's something that's been reinforced over years but kind of trying to look at it is a great place to start and could make a huge difference if languages change perception changed with it.
Outro: The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line’s Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy and we would like to thank Hannah Kelly for speaking to us for this episode. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community. If you’ve been affected by anything in this podcast you can reach us at 018729911or contact us on our online chat service at www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Dublin Lesbian Line is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer whether it’s 2 euro or 100 hundred euro it makes a big difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.