In this episode Women STAR Laura Louise spoke to Val Hourigan, about how she discovered her sexuality abroad and her experience of same-same domestic abuse. If you need support in relation to domestic violence you can contact the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre at 1800 77 8888 or Women’s Aid at 1800 341 900.
You can listen below or you can listen on Acast, iTunes, or Spotify. Links:
Acast: https://bit.ly/AcastEp3VAL
iTunes: https://bit.ly/iTunesEp3VAL
Spotify: https://bit.ly/Spotifyep3VAL
You can listen below or you can listen on Acast, iTunes, or Spotify. Links:
Acast: https://bit.ly/AcastEp3VAL
iTunes: https://bit.ly/iTunesEp3VAL
Spotify: https://bit.ly/Spotifyep3VAL
Transcription
Intro 0:04
Hello and welcome back to the podcast. For today's episode, Laura Louise spoke to Val Hurrican, about how she discovered her sexuality abroad. And her experience of same sex domestic abuse. Val begins by introducing herself and telling Laura Louise about her identity.
Val 0:24
About me, so I'm Val, or Valerie, I feel like I only get called Valerie when I'm in trouble. So most people call me Val. But either is fine. I am non binary lesbian - That's how I identify. I'm from Ireland, but I've kind of lived all over my whole life. I've never really I'd say my family have been most settled in the Tipperary area. But I've actually lived in lots of different counties and why I feel like I don't have an accent from one part of Ireland.
Laura Louise 0:51
I wasn't able to please your accent, actually.
Val 0:54
Yeah, yeah. So, I think I tend to take on accents before I spend time as well. Although I just lived in Australia for about four and a half years. And didn't take that one on. The odd time it comes out and like little snippets here and there. But mostly Yeah, it doesn't. It's it's pretty subtle one. And yeah, I mean, I'm, I feel like I'm a pretty average, like mid 30s person, I am really, really deeply into music and literature and poetry and tend to spend every moment that I'm not working, doing something in those spaces. And I really love to write. So we're getting the opportunity to kind of do these two articles for GCN. And hopefully some more in the future. That really like important thing to me. And a really lovely way to come back to living in Ireland and Dublin, again, such a nice way to kind of connect to the community here. And during the soapbox sessions, that's been really like I've met so many fabulous people through that and through Dublin lesbian line. So yeah, it's been a really positive experience coming back.
Laura Louise 1:49
Yeah, you're amazing. You've completely thrown yourself into the community. And also you say very loving music. I haven't been out that that much to somewhere. But everywhere I've been I've seen you. Which has been wonderful of crawl, of course to like experience Nick Cave. Yes, the same time together. And so yeah, so you said you identify as a non binary lesbian? Could you please chat through where you're at with your identity and how you came to those? feeling comfortable those terms?
Val 2:17
Yeah, I think it's so interesting, because they are two terms that are almost a dichotomy. But that sits so with, like, in me, they just feel so right when I fit when I think about those two things. And I guess what they mean, to me, I think one thing I've been reflecting on is, you know, being a part of the LGBTQIA plus community, and being gender queer, can almost become your personality in a way. Yeah. And I think that's something that I've been thinking about this. So like, human beings are so complex, and there's so many facets to us. And I've, I've kind of been moving more towards the feeling that I don't want that to be when someone looks at me, they just identify me as those two things and nothing else. So that's been something I've been reflecting on. But I think how I've arrived at this point is growing up in rural Ireland, I never felt like I fit in ever. I definitely, you know, outwardly presented myself to fit in, because I felt that pressure to going to like, you know, all girls schools or female schools, which were like run by nuns, and, you know, what you're taught in school, in hindsight, was just so toxic and limiting. And but I think, yeah, I never really felt like I fit in anywhere and how I like expressed myself and even I was always very creative person. And that was really squashed down through my schooling. Like, I remember writing a poem. That sounds like silly in hindsight, but I wrote a poem that got published in a centenary book for Patrick Kavanah, which to me was this huge deal in my life. And as a result, we had to attend this like poetry awards thing at night, and I was in a bad fifth year, and my teacher had to come. And she came, but afterwards, she was like, please don't enter anything else, because I never want to have to go down and think out of hours again. So that's like that. I feel like it's such a summation of how I was like, squashed into this very straight, very heteronormative culture from a very young age. And I really struggled with that al through my 20s. I was deeply unhappy. I lived in Dublin, I think on the outside, it seemed like I had this, you know, I had a good job. I had a partner I had, like, lots of friends and acquaintances and a very active social life. But inside I just, it never felt right. So fast forward a bit. I moved to Melbourne in 2017, by myself. And by myself initially, I should put an asterix on that. And I was opened, my eyes were opened to this world that I didn't even know existed, which was all these incredible, queer people that were just living so freely and expressively and like blurring the boundaries across so many different types of gender norms and sexuality and how they identified and for the first time in my life, I had this feeling like I'd come home to myself, even though I was on the opposite side of the world. And that's how I arrived at a non binary lesbian, where I am today, but spending time in those spaces.
Laura Louise 5:05
Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, it sounds like you encountered such a vibrant community over there that. I think that definitely in 2017, that was the year that I first heard non binary. So I think it was not very prevalent at the time being used here at all. And it definitely grown over the last few years. And what about pronouns for you? How does that sit with you?
Val 5:32
Yeah, I think, you know, again, it goes back to that feeling of like, not wanting to be overly boxed in. So I think I've, I think I'm using she/they at the moment, and that feels right for me. So, you know, I don't really identify with any of the parts of being like a feminine woman, but I equally don't identify with any of the parts of what we would think about of masculinity for men. Maybe in some of my dress sense. Yes. But I actually like to think that that's more of like a, you know, a reclamation of some form of like Butch womanhood, rather than, like, I feel like men get to own this look and image and that, like, just, you know, due to societal norms, women haven't been allowed to own and I'm like, I don't necessarily think they get to have it.
Laura Louise 6:12
I'm with you on that. Absolutely.
Val 6:15
But yeah, she they, I think is, you know, I'm really like, very much believe in feminism and, you know, intersectional feminist and I think I didn't want to lose that part of who I was, because that's so core to who I am. And when I think about things that we fought for here in Ireland over the last 10 years, like, repeal the eighth and marriage equality, and the people that I spoke to a met, you know, going through the journeys of of those, those fights for our rights, I that part feels really true to me still. But equally, I don't really feel like the binary of either male or female fits me either. So I feel like that's a happy middle ground for me where I sit comfortably.
Laura Louise 6:53
And do you ever feel that uncomfortable with how binary the word lesbian is or what that means?
Val 7:01
Yeah, it's I mean, it's such a hot topic at the moment, isn't that, you know, everybody, everybody is it's so controversial. And I think I it's something I've been doing a lot of deep thinking about. For me, when I saw I didn't actually come out until I moved to Australia. I just never felt like I had the space or capacity to do that here in Ireland before, you know, some of my own creation, but also some of the creation of the environment that I that I had been in for such a long time. I feel like the term lesbian was such a, like moment of clarity. For me, when I finally was like, This is how I identify this is who I am. It's such a safe, like space that I know, like how I feel about the world, how we interpret the world, how I interact with, you know, people that I'm attracted to and love. And I just, that's something that's been so so important to my personal identity. However, there is a raging debate around who should be allowed to identify as lesbian at the moment, which I think is so interesting. And I think a lot of that retire comes from this rise of like, transphobia and turf ism in the UK, but equally, some of the, you know, dialogue that's happening in the US at the moment. And historically, lesbianism has been such a, I don't know, it's such a space for people to like, be fluid. And if we think about it ahead of it has always challenged gender norms. Like I think that's what's really true of lesbianism and it's been an inclusive space for people that, you know, that feel like that's what's right for them. And I don't see why we can still hold that, you know, we're not saying that nobody can I, you know, I'm not saying that a cis lesbian can't identify as a cis lesbian and hold those norms that feel right for them. It's just like, let's widen it, and include more people that want to identify that way as well. So yeah, it's it's challenging, but I do feel like anyone that I've spoken to at length about it, like lesbians that feel very strongly about it, once we have that open conversation, do tend to come around.
Laura Louise 8:51
Well, I hate that you have to have that conversation, though. And kind of not justified because you don't have to justify but for people who don't understand, like, kind of almost convinced, like who gets who gets to have the power like that you because you identify as non binary as well as lesbian, you then have to convince this this led to be like, nobody should get to make the decision like that debate about who can identify the lesbian? Well, whoever feels that they're lesbian? It's yeah, I don't. It's something I've always really struggled to come comprehend. And I don't even think it's because out of being you know, yeah, really. I hope that I've inclusive but I'm always learning and I make a lot of mistakes. But does that kind of thing has never been something that needs to be explained. Because it's like, it's someone else's feelings, and especially in our community, when we're meant to be kind of growing and learning all the time. How strange then that we'd want to narrow who can feel and we've been told all our lives to be and feel and live a certain way. How strange that we would do that to our own community.
Val 9:59
Yeah, absolutely. I think There's two parts to it for me like one is that, for me, like queer community, especially people that identify as women or non binary are my sanctuary, like, that's where I truly feel like I'm seeing, I'm heard, I feel safe, I don't have to think about how I'm showing up. And I just feel accepted. So I think we need to anyone that identifies within these, you know, binary terms, I would say, which is what lesbian is. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I think they need to think about what they have gotten from the space and what they needed from that word, and how they apply that to other people that need to identify that way as well. And I do think that this, it stems from fear, I think this, this not wanting to, you know, to broaden the horizons of what the term evolved the term of what lesbian means. And I think it's been an ever evolving term. I think it comes from fear. And I do think that we need to recognize that and that people are worried that they're losing their identity. And that's a valid fear, I don't think that there's anything wrong with them, and do more with people feeling like that, or wanting to make sure that they protect that. But I think we need to protect it in an inclusive way that also allows all the other people that need the space to for it to be held for them to. I think something we've spoken about before is the idea of like calling people in rather than calling them out. And I feel like the moment that the debate around this is very polarized, it's like either you're in the the lesbians should only be sis women camp, or you're in that everybody gets included camp. And actually, it doesn't need to be that way. We can, you know, we can we can have a really open and have the conversation about this about how we we work to evolve what lesbianism means by calling these people in with us and understanding where they're coming from and hearing them if they're afraid of losing their voice. And they're afraid of losing their platform. So let's make sure that we respect that. But while they're also respecting, you know, the full spectrum of queerness,
Laura Louise 11:43
I find you so incredibly compassionate. My heart is just swelling, listening to you speak Val, because, you know, there is so much, I don't even want to say describe it as debate, because there's a lot of calling out, as you say, instead of calling in and kind of excluding people, and that's happening a lot at the moment. And yeah, just that you're able to take such a compassionate approach to that is very beautiful. And thank you so so much. So but on that on the calling people in what are the kinds of things in queer spaces that since going back to Ireland and and being as out as you have been, and making such an effort in the community, as you have been, that help you to feel about included? Or the things that make you feel excluded
Val 12:34
Yeah, I think it's, it's openness, isn't it? It's, it's people being open to meeting you where you are. I think, I think also something that's really important to me, and something that I have definitely been guilty of in the past is assuming things about people. You know, like we all, we all make assumptions without actually wanting to make assumptions like we make them before we even realize we're making them. So I think it's really trying to come into spaces and queer spaces with an open mind and trying to leave your biases at the door. As hard as that can be. We all have them. But I think, you know, the biggest lesson I probably learned in the last couple of years through my professional and my personal life is people are never as they seem like we all have so much to our story that's so nuanced. Like I said, humans are so complex. I am so complex, like there's so many layers to me. And there's so few people that truly, really know who I am. That I hope when I go into queer spaces, I think what I find is that often I met with openness. And that's what's so important, like people are so open to who I am, what my journey is what my story is, and they're inclusive, I feel included in most queer spaces that I go into, like I, like I'm seeing heard respected, I don't have to do on the explaining for myself. Whereas a lot of the time, I always use the term I'm not sure if it's like okay to use, but it's a term that I coined. Say like, I go to a wedding or like a like a predominantly heterosexual wedding or have to spend like an extended amount of time, maybe a couple of days around mostly straight people. I get het-lag, because I like to go. Because it's you're being seen as different, especially for me, who physically presents as quite like outwardly presents, it's quite clear, I'm seeing is different, like you get a lot of looks, you get a lot of questions. You know, it's kind of exhausting sometimes. And I feel like being in queer spaces, all the burden of that is just gone. And you could just get to be you. And that's what so that's what I'm thinking is so important to me to have those and protect those spaces. You know, there. We don't have a lot of them. So we really, especially in Dublin, it's I think it's gotten better, but you know, they're still thin on the ground sometimes.
Laura Louise 14:38
And thank you so much. And what about things that would make you feel excluded? Would it be I guess the opposite?
Val 14:46
Yeah, I think you know, something that's been really I think something that I wasn't conscious of when I lived in Ireland before is how closed Irish people can be about their friendship groups. Not all not all people definitely not but you know, lot of people have their kind of school friends that they've been friends with since they've been 15. And that's their main group of friends. And newcomers aren't necessarily welcome in that. And I think that can also be true within the queer community where people have these set friendship groups. Like somebody said to me recently, I actually have enough friends now. I was like, what, like, I don't resonate with that, like, I love meeting new people and engaging with new people. And I get that that's a, probably like, a simplistic lens to think about it, because there's so many different types of people that might struggle with meeting new people or might be more introverted, etc. But I do think, yeah, I've definitely been to a few queer events and been in a couple of spaces where I've felt excluded, because I'm new. And I think that's probably the, you know, the biggest barrier to overcome, I would say, that's the minority, not the majority, but I think it's, um, you never know how someone is showing up in a queer space. Like, I'm an extrovert, I love meeting new people, I can navigate those moments quite easily and be like, this is fine. This is just how these people are. And like, this is how they want to interact with each other. And I don't fit with that. And that's okay for me. But like, what if you're a queer person, let's move to Dublin from rural Ireland and hasn't had that community. And that's your first experience. So I think I always like to think about when I'm meeting new people, like, I don't know where this person is coming from, they might really need a friend right now. And, you know, let's try and be inclusive as much as we can. And that's probably the times that I've that I've struggled, especially being new back in Dublin, and having to kind of restart my life here in the last couple of months.
Laura Louise 16:29
That's really fascinating, because it sounds like the times you felt more excluded in queer spaces recently haven't been to do with identity or, you know, kind of people not being accepting of that it's more to do with people being closed off to new friends and new experiences. Yeah. Thank you so much. Today, I like to think that I've seen as well, I think that I used to think of it as like, when I would try and go to meetups and things like that. That's sometimes the kind of very, I'm very struck by what you said earlier, right? Fear. I think so many people are possessive of their identity and the labels because of fear. And also about things like friends group that perhaps they were excluded in school, or, you know, they didn't get to make those work, friends, their identity. And then when they find people, they want to hold on really tight, and not that anyone else then in case they they lose that. But in the same way when you're narrow about identity if you kind of close yourself off in tournaments or friends or someone experiences you can just
Val 17:25
like one really sweet thing that's happened to me in the last few months is I made a really like last minute decision to go and seek a term for this concert, which time whatever agnostic power there is, I went because it was the best live performance I've ever been to in Vicar Street. And like at the last second, I looked up to see was there any meetup groups going to this event? And there was one person that had posted in saying, I'm gonna go by myself, like is anybody want to come and nobody had responded. So I messaged. This was probably like, an hour before the show, I message saying, I'm gonna go do you still want to get a drink? Like before I'm gonna meet you, that person has become like one of my favorite people in Dublin.
Laura Louise 18:02
That is incredible. The bravery of putting themselves out there. And then you responding to that, because I think it can be, you know, scary to do that. And then if no one replies, and then it's just this public message, it can be hard to have the confidence to do that again and again. But it sounds like
Val 18:18
this. Yeah, it's open, being open to other people and living life in the moment like, which is it's really hard sometimes. But I find that always creates the best, the best experiences on adventures, as cheesy as that is.
Laura Louise 18:30
I like it. And so you've been really open about your identity. And another area that I saw you speak about when you were doing the soapbox sessions, and in one of the articles is about intimate partner violence. So if you're comfortable to, could you tell us about your experience of abuse in a relationship?
Val 18:50
Yeah, so I feel like, it's really probably important to set the scene for how this situation came about. Because it's the I think, you know, abuse in relationships is always mostly so complex. It just like, you know, of course, it's going to be cases where it just happens. And it's it, there isn't complexity to it. But a lot of the time, these situations arise from vulnerabilities and, you know, a whole load of domino effects coming together that creates this moment that you find yourself in. So like I said, in 2017, I, I was in a relationship with a man and it, he is a fantastic person and one of my best friends. To this day. I adore him. But we just something wasn't right. Like I like I said, we were at that point where the next step would have been to like, buy a house and get married and have a baby and I was something and he was deeply resisting that and I couldn't really understand why because so many people around me were starting to do it. And it was so right for them and they were so happy and I was like, that seems like hell to me. Like, I can't, I can't, I can't like it was like making me anxious on the daily. And so I made this decision to I actually had this big turning point at my job, which had been a really great job that I'd really loved and I had the decision to like stay on and sign this kind of like longer term contract or to leave. So I decided to leave and I moved to Australia alone, knowing one person. And my partner at the time was going to follow me out there a couple of months later, so we had a really open conversation about what was going on. And you know, he's really a fantastic person. And I went out ahead of him and started to slowly figure out who I was like, those first few months out there were so deeply confronting like it was, I just felt like, I felt like an alien. I'm an Aquarius. I always feel like an alien, but I felt like such and such an alien.
Laura Louise 20:35
I'm an Aquarius as well.
Val 20:38
I always feel like an I like a like I'm on the outside of with my brain how my brain works. But I'm Yeah, I found that it really confronting experience. And I went through like so many emotions. Anyway, fast forward, like a year later, we broke up. And I was really not less than a year later, but we broke up. And I was really trying to figure out like, who I was on, I started going on dates with women. And that wasn't my first experience of being with a woman. But it was my first like, intentional experience, I would say. And I think I was really vulnerable. Like I was trying to process, I was really far from home, everything that I've known, I was new in a city where I really didn't know anybody. So I'd been living in different parts of Australia and then moved to Melbourne. And I went on a date with this woman, and oh my god, like, for the first time in my life, all these things like love songs made sense. And it's so cringy like to think about it. But like love songs made sense. And like the idea concept of being able to fall in love, like that made sense. And yeah, I was like, I'm gay. Like, there's no today two ways about it. But I was in a very vulnerable position. So we very quickly got into this, like, super intense relationship, that was really lovely at the start, like it truly was, you know, and, yes, we had a very problematic relationship. But you know, every person has some really good parts to them, which is very true of this. And we had so much fun together. I was in kind of a an unstable living situation, and ended up having to leave my like third house in a short period of time, because the landlord wanted to sell it. And my partner at the time also was having issues with her she was living, so we decided to move in together really quickly. And I think that is what really, I guess, was the crux of the issue. Like we didn't truly know each other. When you don't live with someone, you don't really, you see a lot of them, but you don't get to see all sides of them. And it was when we started living together in person that that was when all of the cracks on the issue started to show up. And I, I started to feel afraid every day like that was, I'd never been in a situation like that before where I'd had to fear for my safety. You know, in my own home, and it's a really, it's an awful experience. It's, it's very, it's like waking up every day, and a wave is drowning you. That's the only way I can describe it, it was very painful.
Laura Louise 22:52
It sounds like it. And it really when you the way you paint that picture of how it came about. I imagine a lot of people will be hearing some of their own experiences to varying degrees listening to that, because it is that thing of instability and vulnerability, creating the space for two people to kind of become an unhealthy environment very quickly. And depending on the setup, and the people that are involved like that can turn into abuse and unfair in your own home.
Val 23:26
Yeah, and I think like it was such a unique set of circumstances as well. Like, we ended up moving to a suburb that was kind of far away, not far away, but like a 10 minute drive to my friends. We were in lockdown. So the limit that we could go was five kilometers from the house. And you weren't supposed to see somebody from another house at the time. And I had been kind of sick on and off like I I was having there was like all the bushfires that happened in Australia around a time and COVID was really kicking off. And it was just a really like, it was like a pressure cooker situation. And I think very quickly it went from me being on like Cloud Nine about this amazing person that I've met and this amazing relationship that I was in and, you know, it was like coming out to people for the first time. Like, it was such a hard moment to be like, I'm I'm queer, I'm in love, I've met this amazing person to this complete 182. Like, oh God, like what is my life like I'm I'm genuinely frightened all the time and and having nobody having no support system there in that moment was just so awful. Like I hadn't literally no, but I no validation. So like, I was living in a vacuum. I was experiencing all of these really awful things in my own home like, you know, aggression, outbursts. Alcoholism, like so many intense, very difficult to navigate things with nobody to kind of support me in that and like that. I think that's something that I wrote about in the article is I would like Google at nighttime being like, is this abuse what is abuse? What same sex abuse like what are what can women be abusive? It was so because I think when we think about abuse It's always so like, you know, heterosexual males is where our brains go. So for me, I felt almost like I was betraying my own identity I still identified as a cis woman at the time. And I felt like I was betraying this. It was so confusing, it was just so confusing. And I think that's why I ended up staying in this situation probably a lot longer than I would have. If I'd had validated external validation from the professionals that I tried to get help from, or from my workplace or, or been able to regularly connect with friends who really did try to support me, but not being able to see each other and being in a house with the person that's creating the situation. It was very difficult, like, like, you know, my phone to check my phone all the time. Every time my phone went off, who was contacting you? Why are they contacting you? You can't speak to this person, you know, very, it was a very, it was a very hard situation to be in.
Laura Louise 25:48
And I think especially like what you were saying about having to look up like, is this abuse, like knowing something was wrong, feeling fear, but then not having that kind of, I guess, there not being any visibility around us, which again, is I'm extra grateful that you're speaking about this today. And also, I want to ask again, if you're comfortable to the kind of you said, you know, by phone checking, alcoholism, isolations. Like what ways did it? Did the abuse really portray itself just for anybody that's listening, that might also be having that feeling in their stomach? Where they're like, Oh, I think that might be me.
Val 26:23
Yeah, I think I think abuse is different in different situations. So, you know, like, I don't want to give an exhaustive list of here's what abuse looks like, because it can be so many things. But for me, it was really that kind of coercive of control. So, yeah, like, who were you speaking to? Why are you speaking to them not being allowed to see certain people, outbursts like everyday at home, very aggressive, frightening, like I was, like, very scared. And it was interesting. Like, I kind of always thought it was only in private, but I remember we had a good tradesperson come to the house. And I'll never forget the look on his face when she like, was having this outburst. Like he looked scared of her. And that was such a, like, I would say, that was one of the turning points where I was like, Oh, if he's looking at her like this, then maybe my assumption of the situation is correct. Like, this isn't okay. And actually, my sister and my youngest sister moved over to Australia at the poor, the poor thing at the very start of the pandemic, she had such a terrible time. And, and I remember her, like saying, they stayed with us for six weeks at the start. And I remember her saying, like, what is going on here like this is this is a really, something's really wrong in this situation. And to be fair to her, she would like ring me every single day until I left to be like, you like, are you? Okay? What's happening today? Why aren't you leaving? And I think it was her, like consistent support through that period that finally, and a couple of like other big moments that finally made me go, I don't even know who I am anymore. Like, I'm broken. Like, I am such a like, outgoing, confident, happy, positive person, although I don't like the word positive that much. But you know, like, I'm, I'm generally such a, like, there's a lot of life in me, I think. And I feel like that was completely gone to the point that I couldn't function and I had to get out. So I think, I think that what you need to do in that situation is realize that you actually can stop the abuse. And like, no matter how much I was, I tried to negotiate so much all the time in the moment being like, what, what's the problem? Why are you feeling like this, like what's created this anger and like, often, it was something that I would have done or said, but I wouldn't, it was a quite a normal thing that I was doing or saying, like, I wouldn't have washed the dishes, right? Or I would have spoken to someone on the phone and on the phone in a tone that wasn't approved, or I would have spent an extra hour at work that day, or would have gone to a zoom party with my friends. You know, when like, in the evening, at least, it could have been anything. But I think, I think realizing that I couldn't no matter what I tried to do in this situation, I couldn't stop it. And I think that was a that was I was like I was losing myself. And I was like I have to leave or I'm going to hit the point of no return here.
Laura Louise 28:55
And I think that's the thing for a lot of people, isn't it that you were doing normal things, it's that the reaction to them isn't normal and isn't healthy. So no matter what you tried to edit or change, whatever you did, somehow was always going to elicit those reactions in the person because they're abusing you. And you said that you lost yourself your sister sounds incredible. Because it can be very difficult to continuously reach out to a person almost, especially if you love them so much to keep you know, and you see them and pain and struggling. And how did you eventually leave there and what was the the end of that situation? And how did you start healing?
Val 29:35
Yeah, I think yeah, I think, you know, reflecting on it now. Like, again, to use the word complexity. It's just so complex, like, I feel so much. I feel so much like compassion for this person. Like I think they had a really tough road in their life and which I didn't know that like, you know, it takes a while to learn all these things about somebody. So I do do, it was so hard to I loved her so much like so much love, so much empathy and so much like such an urge to want to protect her from all the terrible things that have happened to her in her life. And that was so conflicting with this, this shell of a human I'd become so I found trying to leave really, really difficult. But eventually it hit a point where I was like, I'm not I'm not okay, like, and my mental health was so bad at the time that I didn't know even how to begin, I don't think I realized how bad it was. But I also don't think I even knew how to begin to get myself out of that hole. So I one day packed up everything I remember trying to think about, like, what is my most valuable thing that might get, you know, destroyed in this in this trying to leave process. I packed up my car and went to stay with this couple that I'd met, who were like friends of friends. They're in their 60s, the most. Oh my god, the most beautiful people. I think I missed them. Like it's so funny because one of them their whole family is from the same area in Tipperary that my parents live. So we had this really beautiful connection and they had this Airbnb in their garden, which was like, sorry, Kath, basically a glorified shed full of spiders. And like, and that being Australia, quite the grim type of spider. I'm not afraid of anything like that. But oh, it was there was moments. I'd be in bed and I would just see the spider, I'm sorry, went and stayed there for quite a stretch of time. And that was the most awful, like awful, I would say six weeks of my life like it was so painful. It was I was like I was getting these calls all day every day. And I was still kind of in the limbo of I hadn't quite gotten to the point of blocking her yet. calls and texts and calls and texts and calls and texts, like all day and night, all of the time, it was really horrendous. But I knew once I was away from it, I got this real clarity about how bad it was. And knowing that I couldn't go back to that situation. And of course, that wasn't the end like the relationship was over at that point. But trying to then fully extricate my life from her was really, really, really difficult and took a long time. And there was a lot many more abusive situations that I ended up in as a result of trying to, like separate my life from hers. Like it got to the point where I was like, Should I just leave everything that I own in this country there and like not bother with it, because it's quite very frightening to try and go back and get it. I remember I got a delivery of toilet paper to my sent accidentally to the old house. And I was terrified that my new address was going to be on the box. So I was trying to judge the time she was at work to go with a friend to drive to the house to get the box of toilet paper from the front door. Before she got there. In case you didn't find out what my new address was because I had to move a couple of times, so that she wouldn't know where it was living. So it was yeah, it was really, really, really painful. But how I started healing was the amazing people in my life. I there is never enough thanks that I could give to those people for what they did for me. Like, I thought I have very good friends in Ireland. Very beautiful people in my life here. But they just they treated me like I was literally one of their own, like one of their family members. And even though we were still in lockdown, they just supported me in a way that I'd never been supported before by through friendships. And would you believe like the person that I was closest to, during that time was actually worked in domestic violence, and was queer. So they they valid, they were able to validate my experiences in a way that no one else had been able to. And it was through that, like, bear hug of friendship as any way I can describe it that I started to come around. And then someone found this therapist, I'd seen a couple of therapists that had really invalidated me and made me feel really terrible. But then somebody recommended this therapist to me who I still see to this day who I adore. And she she really, really, really helped me to start to begin to heal, which has taken a long time. But I feel like I'm I feel like I've moved on from it now, which is why I can speak about it. Which is great.
Laura Louise 33:54
That's incredible, because it was such a horrific situation. And also so early on in your journey of kind of coming out and being out and the pandemic and everything. And I guess thinking I know, like you said about abuse, people's experiences are unique to them. And there's so many different types. But I'm struck by what you said about what your queer friends did to support you. So what were the kinds of things they did, that you found, personally, the most helpful at that time that just like kept you going?
Val 34:27
They were just there. And they were like, they were like rocks when they were there like they they just checked in. Like they would just text me call me ask me how I was make sure that I was eating like, really basic things, but they consistently showed up day after day after day after day. And like, you know, I think in Ireland we tend to be people pleasers. So that's something that I've also had to grow out of and you know, like transform that part of myself as well. And I had never truly like be with friends but like I actually They need support. Like I was always the one that was giving the support and very rarely asking for the support. And in this situation, I had nothing to give like I was broken. And they just like, stepped into all the cracks of me. And like started just very slowly put me back together through the tiniest actions, but really, it was just consistently being there for me and listening and validating me and remember one friend, I can't remember who it was now. It's like, you have to read this book. And when you read Oh, my friend Sam, Sam was like when you read this book, you it will help you start to make sense of your experience. But like set a day aside, because you're gonna cry the whole way through. And the book is called In The Dream house by Carmen Mikado. hope I'm pronouncing that right to be bits, Machado. But it was I could have written that book myself like word for word. And remember reading that and being like, in bits for like, two days after I read it, which isn't uncommon for me when it comes to anything cultural, love a good cry. Um, but oh, I cry like everything. I just feel so deeply. But um, yeah, I read that book. And I remember thinking like, okay, I get it now. And I'm ready to like, I'm ready to start to try to move on. That was a real moment.
Laura Louise 36:13
That is incredible. I guess I think what? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing here that like to your sister and your friends, consistency was a real key. Because I think as well as you know, Irish people being people pleasers. So if someone says, are you okay? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm fine. when really you're like, Please help me. There's the other thing about not wanting to bother someone. But that it sounds like it's really important to just keep trying, keep trying. And because of that, I think we know something's not right for your friend, whether it's situation they're in or you can see they're not themselves. But we don't want to push to in case you annoy them or push them away. But it sounds like it's quite important when someone's at like their darkest point to just hear hear from someone that loves them
Val 37:00
Yeah, I felt like I'd spent so long not being heard. And I'd felt so long, like not even listening to myself that I think they came in and I think yeah, they just like incredible people like I, I often reflect on how much service like members of our community do for each other, like how much we care for each other in a practical sense, unlike how that's not recorded anywhere. Like I think it's so interesting, like, you know, we look at statistics and facts and information. I'm like, actually the queer community support because it you know, like, the queer community has very high incidences of mental health issues, totally understandably. And I feel like all the all the voluntary support that we give each other because we are so caring goes unnoticed. And I feel like there's we should be recording it. I'm not sure how but I feel like we should.
Laura Louise 37:46
Well here! I really agree with you. I feel it's always recorded how much we suffer. But what isn't seen is how resilient we are and how incredibly supportive we are. I know for a lot of people that can really struggle in the community. But I feel like it's not a community. And I hate those words. And there is a lot of infighting at the moment. But I truly, truly believe if you need help, and you are able to like not not everyone's able to ask for it, you're able to ask for it. And people will go out of their way they don't even have to know you will. And they'll try and connect with you or other people to get the help that you need. And I really firmly believe that about our community. I think it's very, very special.
Val 38:27
Yeah, I think I think you know, when we think about community as well, a community can be two people. Like it doesn't have to be 30 people, you know, when we talk about community, like the community that I had, at that time supporting me was very small, like it was probably three or four people that really pushed me through that time. And and that believed in me that I could they had met me before all of this had happened. And they knew who I was. And they believed that I could get back to that person. So I think that was it was their belief in me. And even though it was such a small amount of people that they like, yeah, they just they were like this. Yeah, there's nothing I could ever do to repay them for like what they did to me did to meet it for me.
Laura Louise 39:06
And you don't have to repay them. Because I think another beautiful point you made is it's okay sometimes when you just need to take from your friends, like you said, You've nothing to give. If your friends are offering you that support and love. They're doing it because they couldn't give it and you can just take and then there will be a time when you heal when you can give it I think sometimes we feel like something has to be like this 5050 balance and being that people pleaser like, Oh, I'm too much of a mess right now. Or I can put that on them that if people are offering that support and you feel like you need to take it then take it
Val 39:40
on Yeah 100% and like how I tried to live my life is you know, coming always coming from a place of empathy and care for myself and for other people. And I feel like if you just hold that as your guiding principle then you can't really go wrong. Like I think that means that when you need something you can ask for it. But when you have the capacity to give you can give back and like I think the reality is for most of us, we more lean into the giving back bucket a lot of the time than we do into the taking bucket or needing needing support bucket. But I think yeah, there's enough to go around. So I think it's like, yeah, it's um, it's just showing up for each other, isn't it? And, and, like, you know, reaching out and asking someone if they are okay. And I really do having lived away and come back, like Australians do not people please like, it's just not in their nature. And that, to me was so confronting and refreshing to be in this environment of like, friends calling me out on my bullshit as well. You know, like, if I, like if I was doing or saying something, and they didn't agree with it, like, one of my friends would be like, no, come on, like, what are you on about? And I'd be like, Yeah, you're right, and then owning it and being like, yeah, I am actually wrong. Or, ya know, maybe I didn't show up for myself there how I'd like or I'm pushing my responsibilities onto someone else, or whatever it looks like. And yeah, I must say like, it can be quite challenging to live this way. But I'm actually much happier for it.
Laura Louise 40:57
It sounds very honest. Yeah. Sometimes I cringe when I use the word authentic.
Val 41:03
Yeah, it truly is. And I think that isn't that what we're experiencing is we're trying to be our most authentic selves. So they kind of go hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Louise 41:13
That sounds incredible. Thank you so much. Before we wrap up, is there any important message that you'd like to just close out with that? Yeah, that you want to make sure you say, today?
Val 41:27
Yeah, I think, I think that whole experience for me, was probably, I don't like to say like, the best thing that happened, because it was truly awful. Like, it really was, but it's changed me completely, who I am as a person. And I really like who I am now. And I really like how I shop for myself and my life. And I'm really like, you can feel so much shame in those situations. And I did for a long time felt like deep shame about what happened to me. But now I feel really proud that I pushed through and come out the other side. So I think there's kind of two things. One is like, I think I mentioned already, the only person that can stop the abuse is the abuser. So you know, get the help. Like, if you don't get the help the first or the second or the third time, don't stop looking for the help. Because eventually you'll knock on the right door and the right person will be there to support you and validate you and help you find ways to get out of the situation and move forward. And make like you know always leave an unsafe situation. Easier said than done. And there's a privilege and being able to do that sometimes. But yeah, I think that's number one. But number two is, I always pay respect back to the struggle. The struggle, the struggle of the last couple of years of my life to get back to this point has been immense, like it's not a it's not a straight line from terrible time to good time. It's like up down in around over back. You know, I like I always think it's probably like I had to grieve, what I went through, like I had to grieve who I was before, I had to like grieve for the parts of me that change, I lost somebody that I really loved. Like, like my, I would say like my first true true love. Like I lost that. And that's really sad, you know, but I also had to grieve the betrayal of like what had happened to me in the situation. So it was it was it was a really difficult time and a really like transformative time. And I no matter what I go through my day to day now like, you know, like dealing with some we all deal with really difficult things in our life. I kind of feel like no, I can stand on my own two feet and I got through that I'll get through anything. Yeah.
Outro 43:29
Well, that's it for today. Thanks for listening. And we will also say a special thank you to Val for speaking to us for this episode. If you or someone you know needs support in relation to domestic abuse, you can conduct Women's Aid on 1800 341 900. Dublin lesbian line is support service for the LGBTQ ai plus community and Ireland. DLL is run by volunteers and relies heavily on voluntary contributions. So we will greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer. And before we go we want to as always say a big thank you to our very talented musician Chris Gebhardt for writing their theme music of women's there. We want to thank as always Dublin pride for sponsoring this season. Lastly, if you liked the podcast, please spread the word. Thank you for listening and see you next time.
Hello and welcome back to the podcast. For today's episode, Laura Louise spoke to Val Hurrican, about how she discovered her sexuality abroad. And her experience of same sex domestic abuse. Val begins by introducing herself and telling Laura Louise about her identity.
Val 0:24
About me, so I'm Val, or Valerie, I feel like I only get called Valerie when I'm in trouble. So most people call me Val. But either is fine. I am non binary lesbian - That's how I identify. I'm from Ireland, but I've kind of lived all over my whole life. I've never really I'd say my family have been most settled in the Tipperary area. But I've actually lived in lots of different counties and why I feel like I don't have an accent from one part of Ireland.
Laura Louise 0:51
I wasn't able to please your accent, actually.
Val 0:54
Yeah, yeah. So, I think I tend to take on accents before I spend time as well. Although I just lived in Australia for about four and a half years. And didn't take that one on. The odd time it comes out and like little snippets here and there. But mostly Yeah, it doesn't. It's it's pretty subtle one. And yeah, I mean, I'm, I feel like I'm a pretty average, like mid 30s person, I am really, really deeply into music and literature and poetry and tend to spend every moment that I'm not working, doing something in those spaces. And I really love to write. So we're getting the opportunity to kind of do these two articles for GCN. And hopefully some more in the future. That really like important thing to me. And a really lovely way to come back to living in Ireland and Dublin, again, such a nice way to kind of connect to the community here. And during the soapbox sessions, that's been really like I've met so many fabulous people through that and through Dublin lesbian line. So yeah, it's been a really positive experience coming back.
Laura Louise 1:49
Yeah, you're amazing. You've completely thrown yourself into the community. And also you say very loving music. I haven't been out that that much to somewhere. But everywhere I've been I've seen you. Which has been wonderful of crawl, of course to like experience Nick Cave. Yes, the same time together. And so yeah, so you said you identify as a non binary lesbian? Could you please chat through where you're at with your identity and how you came to those? feeling comfortable those terms?
Val 2:17
Yeah, I think it's so interesting, because they are two terms that are almost a dichotomy. But that sits so with, like, in me, they just feel so right when I fit when I think about those two things. And I guess what they mean, to me, I think one thing I've been reflecting on is, you know, being a part of the LGBTQIA plus community, and being gender queer, can almost become your personality in a way. Yeah. And I think that's something that I've been thinking about this. So like, human beings are so complex, and there's so many facets to us. And I've, I've kind of been moving more towards the feeling that I don't want that to be when someone looks at me, they just identify me as those two things and nothing else. So that's been something I've been reflecting on. But I think how I've arrived at this point is growing up in rural Ireland, I never felt like I fit in ever. I definitely, you know, outwardly presented myself to fit in, because I felt that pressure to going to like, you know, all girls schools or female schools, which were like run by nuns, and, you know, what you're taught in school, in hindsight, was just so toxic and limiting. And but I think, yeah, I never really felt like I fit in anywhere and how I like expressed myself and even I was always very creative person. And that was really squashed down through my schooling. Like, I remember writing a poem. That sounds like silly in hindsight, but I wrote a poem that got published in a centenary book for Patrick Kavanah, which to me was this huge deal in my life. And as a result, we had to attend this like poetry awards thing at night, and I was in a bad fifth year, and my teacher had to come. And she came, but afterwards, she was like, please don't enter anything else, because I never want to have to go down and think out of hours again. So that's like that. I feel like it's such a summation of how I was like, squashed into this very straight, very heteronormative culture from a very young age. And I really struggled with that al through my 20s. I was deeply unhappy. I lived in Dublin, I think on the outside, it seemed like I had this, you know, I had a good job. I had a partner I had, like, lots of friends and acquaintances and a very active social life. But inside I just, it never felt right. So fast forward a bit. I moved to Melbourne in 2017, by myself. And by myself initially, I should put an asterix on that. And I was opened, my eyes were opened to this world that I didn't even know existed, which was all these incredible, queer people that were just living so freely and expressively and like blurring the boundaries across so many different types of gender norms and sexuality and how they identified and for the first time in my life, I had this feeling like I'd come home to myself, even though I was on the opposite side of the world. And that's how I arrived at a non binary lesbian, where I am today, but spending time in those spaces.
Laura Louise 5:05
Wow, that's incredible. Yeah, it sounds like you encountered such a vibrant community over there that. I think that definitely in 2017, that was the year that I first heard non binary. So I think it was not very prevalent at the time being used here at all. And it definitely grown over the last few years. And what about pronouns for you? How does that sit with you?
Val 5:32
Yeah, I think, you know, again, it goes back to that feeling of like, not wanting to be overly boxed in. So I think I've, I think I'm using she/they at the moment, and that feels right for me. So, you know, I don't really identify with any of the parts of being like a feminine woman, but I equally don't identify with any of the parts of what we would think about of masculinity for men. Maybe in some of my dress sense. Yes. But I actually like to think that that's more of like a, you know, a reclamation of some form of like Butch womanhood, rather than, like, I feel like men get to own this look and image and that, like, just, you know, due to societal norms, women haven't been allowed to own and I'm like, I don't necessarily think they get to have it.
Laura Louise 6:12
I'm with you on that. Absolutely.
Val 6:15
But yeah, she they, I think is, you know, I'm really like, very much believe in feminism and, you know, intersectional feminist and I think I didn't want to lose that part of who I was, because that's so core to who I am. And when I think about things that we fought for here in Ireland over the last 10 years, like, repeal the eighth and marriage equality, and the people that I spoke to a met, you know, going through the journeys of of those, those fights for our rights, I that part feels really true to me still. But equally, I don't really feel like the binary of either male or female fits me either. So I feel like that's a happy middle ground for me where I sit comfortably.
Laura Louise 6:53
And do you ever feel that uncomfortable with how binary the word lesbian is or what that means?
Val 7:01
Yeah, it's I mean, it's such a hot topic at the moment, isn't that, you know, everybody, everybody is it's so controversial. And I think I it's something I've been doing a lot of deep thinking about. For me, when I saw I didn't actually come out until I moved to Australia. I just never felt like I had the space or capacity to do that here in Ireland before, you know, some of my own creation, but also some of the creation of the environment that I that I had been in for such a long time. I feel like the term lesbian was such a, like moment of clarity. For me, when I finally was like, This is how I identify this is who I am. It's such a safe, like space that I know, like how I feel about the world, how we interpret the world, how I interact with, you know, people that I'm attracted to and love. And I just, that's something that's been so so important to my personal identity. However, there is a raging debate around who should be allowed to identify as lesbian at the moment, which I think is so interesting. And I think a lot of that retire comes from this rise of like, transphobia and turf ism in the UK, but equally, some of the, you know, dialogue that's happening in the US at the moment. And historically, lesbianism has been such a, I don't know, it's such a space for people to like, be fluid. And if we think about it ahead of it has always challenged gender norms. Like I think that's what's really true of lesbianism and it's been an inclusive space for people that, you know, that feel like that's what's right for them. And I don't see why we can still hold that, you know, we're not saying that nobody can I, you know, I'm not saying that a cis lesbian can't identify as a cis lesbian and hold those norms that feel right for them. It's just like, let's widen it, and include more people that want to identify that way as well. So yeah, it's it's challenging, but I do feel like anyone that I've spoken to at length about it, like lesbians that feel very strongly about it, once we have that open conversation, do tend to come around.
Laura Louise 8:51
Well, I hate that you have to have that conversation, though. And kind of not justified because you don't have to justify but for people who don't understand, like, kind of almost convinced, like who gets who gets to have the power like that you because you identify as non binary as well as lesbian, you then have to convince this this led to be like, nobody should get to make the decision like that debate about who can identify the lesbian? Well, whoever feels that they're lesbian? It's yeah, I don't. It's something I've always really struggled to come comprehend. And I don't even think it's because out of being you know, yeah, really. I hope that I've inclusive but I'm always learning and I make a lot of mistakes. But does that kind of thing has never been something that needs to be explained. Because it's like, it's someone else's feelings, and especially in our community, when we're meant to be kind of growing and learning all the time. How strange then that we'd want to narrow who can feel and we've been told all our lives to be and feel and live a certain way. How strange that we would do that to our own community.
Val 9:59
Yeah, absolutely. I think There's two parts to it for me like one is that, for me, like queer community, especially people that identify as women or non binary are my sanctuary, like, that's where I truly feel like I'm seeing, I'm heard, I feel safe, I don't have to think about how I'm showing up. And I just feel accepted. So I think we need to anyone that identifies within these, you know, binary terms, I would say, which is what lesbian is. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I think they need to think about what they have gotten from the space and what they needed from that word, and how they apply that to other people that need to identify that way as well. And I do think that this, it stems from fear, I think this, this not wanting to, you know, to broaden the horizons of what the term evolved the term of what lesbian means. And I think it's been an ever evolving term. I think it comes from fear. And I do think that we need to recognize that and that people are worried that they're losing their identity. And that's a valid fear, I don't think that there's anything wrong with them, and do more with people feeling like that, or wanting to make sure that they protect that. But I think we need to protect it in an inclusive way that also allows all the other people that need the space to for it to be held for them to. I think something we've spoken about before is the idea of like calling people in rather than calling them out. And I feel like the moment that the debate around this is very polarized, it's like either you're in the the lesbians should only be sis women camp, or you're in that everybody gets included camp. And actually, it doesn't need to be that way. We can, you know, we can we can have a really open and have the conversation about this about how we we work to evolve what lesbianism means by calling these people in with us and understanding where they're coming from and hearing them if they're afraid of losing their voice. And they're afraid of losing their platform. So let's make sure that we respect that. But while they're also respecting, you know, the full spectrum of queerness,
Laura Louise 11:43
I find you so incredibly compassionate. My heart is just swelling, listening to you speak Val, because, you know, there is so much, I don't even want to say describe it as debate, because there's a lot of calling out, as you say, instead of calling in and kind of excluding people, and that's happening a lot at the moment. And yeah, just that you're able to take such a compassionate approach to that is very beautiful. And thank you so so much. So but on that on the calling people in what are the kinds of things in queer spaces that since going back to Ireland and and being as out as you have been, and making such an effort in the community, as you have been, that help you to feel about included? Or the things that make you feel excluded
Val 12:34
Yeah, I think it's, it's openness, isn't it? It's, it's people being open to meeting you where you are. I think, I think also something that's really important to me, and something that I have definitely been guilty of in the past is assuming things about people. You know, like we all, we all make assumptions without actually wanting to make assumptions like we make them before we even realize we're making them. So I think it's really trying to come into spaces and queer spaces with an open mind and trying to leave your biases at the door. As hard as that can be. We all have them. But I think, you know, the biggest lesson I probably learned in the last couple of years through my professional and my personal life is people are never as they seem like we all have so much to our story that's so nuanced. Like I said, humans are so complex. I am so complex, like there's so many layers to me. And there's so few people that truly, really know who I am. That I hope when I go into queer spaces, I think what I find is that often I met with openness. And that's what's so important, like people are so open to who I am, what my journey is what my story is, and they're inclusive, I feel included in most queer spaces that I go into, like I, like I'm seeing heard respected, I don't have to do on the explaining for myself. Whereas a lot of the time, I always use the term I'm not sure if it's like okay to use, but it's a term that I coined. Say like, I go to a wedding or like a like a predominantly heterosexual wedding or have to spend like an extended amount of time, maybe a couple of days around mostly straight people. I get het-lag, because I like to go. Because it's you're being seen as different, especially for me, who physically presents as quite like outwardly presents, it's quite clear, I'm seeing is different, like you get a lot of looks, you get a lot of questions. You know, it's kind of exhausting sometimes. And I feel like being in queer spaces, all the burden of that is just gone. And you could just get to be you. And that's what so that's what I'm thinking is so important to me to have those and protect those spaces. You know, there. We don't have a lot of them. So we really, especially in Dublin, it's I think it's gotten better, but you know, they're still thin on the ground sometimes.
Laura Louise 14:38
And thank you so much. And what about things that would make you feel excluded? Would it be I guess the opposite?
Val 14:46
Yeah, I think you know, something that's been really I think something that I wasn't conscious of when I lived in Ireland before is how closed Irish people can be about their friendship groups. Not all not all people definitely not but you know, lot of people have their kind of school friends that they've been friends with since they've been 15. And that's their main group of friends. And newcomers aren't necessarily welcome in that. And I think that can also be true within the queer community where people have these set friendship groups. Like somebody said to me recently, I actually have enough friends now. I was like, what, like, I don't resonate with that, like, I love meeting new people and engaging with new people. And I get that that's a, probably like, a simplistic lens to think about it, because there's so many different types of people that might struggle with meeting new people or might be more introverted, etc. But I do think, yeah, I've definitely been to a few queer events and been in a couple of spaces where I've felt excluded, because I'm new. And I think that's probably the, you know, the biggest barrier to overcome, I would say, that's the minority, not the majority, but I think it's, um, you never know how someone is showing up in a queer space. Like, I'm an extrovert, I love meeting new people, I can navigate those moments quite easily and be like, this is fine. This is just how these people are. And like, this is how they want to interact with each other. And I don't fit with that. And that's okay for me. But like, what if you're a queer person, let's move to Dublin from rural Ireland and hasn't had that community. And that's your first experience. So I think I always like to think about when I'm meeting new people, like, I don't know where this person is coming from, they might really need a friend right now. And, you know, let's try and be inclusive as much as we can. And that's probably the times that I've that I've struggled, especially being new back in Dublin, and having to kind of restart my life here in the last couple of months.
Laura Louise 16:29
That's really fascinating, because it sounds like the times you felt more excluded in queer spaces recently haven't been to do with identity or, you know, kind of people not being accepting of that it's more to do with people being closed off to new friends and new experiences. Yeah. Thank you so much. Today, I like to think that I've seen as well, I think that I used to think of it as like, when I would try and go to meetups and things like that. That's sometimes the kind of very, I'm very struck by what you said earlier, right? Fear. I think so many people are possessive of their identity and the labels because of fear. And also about things like friends group that perhaps they were excluded in school, or, you know, they didn't get to make those work, friends, their identity. And then when they find people, they want to hold on really tight, and not that anyone else then in case they they lose that. But in the same way when you're narrow about identity if you kind of close yourself off in tournaments or friends or someone experiences you can just
Val 17:25
like one really sweet thing that's happened to me in the last few months is I made a really like last minute decision to go and seek a term for this concert, which time whatever agnostic power there is, I went because it was the best live performance I've ever been to in Vicar Street. And like at the last second, I looked up to see was there any meetup groups going to this event? And there was one person that had posted in saying, I'm gonna go by myself, like is anybody want to come and nobody had responded. So I messaged. This was probably like, an hour before the show, I message saying, I'm gonna go do you still want to get a drink? Like before I'm gonna meet you, that person has become like one of my favorite people in Dublin.
Laura Louise 18:02
That is incredible. The bravery of putting themselves out there. And then you responding to that, because I think it can be, you know, scary to do that. And then if no one replies, and then it's just this public message, it can be hard to have the confidence to do that again and again. But it sounds like
Val 18:18
this. Yeah, it's open, being open to other people and living life in the moment like, which is it's really hard sometimes. But I find that always creates the best, the best experiences on adventures, as cheesy as that is.
Laura Louise 18:30
I like it. And so you've been really open about your identity. And another area that I saw you speak about when you were doing the soapbox sessions, and in one of the articles is about intimate partner violence. So if you're comfortable to, could you tell us about your experience of abuse in a relationship?
Val 18:50
Yeah, so I feel like, it's really probably important to set the scene for how this situation came about. Because it's the I think, you know, abuse in relationships is always mostly so complex. It just like, you know, of course, it's going to be cases where it just happens. And it's it, there isn't complexity to it. But a lot of the time, these situations arise from vulnerabilities and, you know, a whole load of domino effects coming together that creates this moment that you find yourself in. So like I said, in 2017, I, I was in a relationship with a man and it, he is a fantastic person and one of my best friends. To this day. I adore him. But we just something wasn't right. Like I like I said, we were at that point where the next step would have been to like, buy a house and get married and have a baby and I was something and he was deeply resisting that and I couldn't really understand why because so many people around me were starting to do it. And it was so right for them and they were so happy and I was like, that seems like hell to me. Like, I can't, I can't, I can't like it was like making me anxious on the daily. And so I made this decision to I actually had this big turning point at my job, which had been a really great job that I'd really loved and I had the decision to like stay on and sign this kind of like longer term contract or to leave. So I decided to leave and I moved to Australia alone, knowing one person. And my partner at the time was going to follow me out there a couple of months later, so we had a really open conversation about what was going on. And you know, he's really a fantastic person. And I went out ahead of him and started to slowly figure out who I was like, those first few months out there were so deeply confronting like it was, I just felt like, I felt like an alien. I'm an Aquarius. I always feel like an alien, but I felt like such and such an alien.
Laura Louise 20:35
I'm an Aquarius as well.
Val 20:38
I always feel like an I like a like I'm on the outside of with my brain how my brain works. But I'm Yeah, I found that it really confronting experience. And I went through like so many emotions. Anyway, fast forward, like a year later, we broke up. And I was really not less than a year later, but we broke up. And I was really trying to figure out like, who I was on, I started going on dates with women. And that wasn't my first experience of being with a woman. But it was my first like, intentional experience, I would say. And I think I was really vulnerable. Like I was trying to process, I was really far from home, everything that I've known, I was new in a city where I really didn't know anybody. So I'd been living in different parts of Australia and then moved to Melbourne. And I went on a date with this woman, and oh my god, like, for the first time in my life, all these things like love songs made sense. And it's so cringy like to think about it. But like love songs made sense. And like the idea concept of being able to fall in love, like that made sense. And yeah, I was like, I'm gay. Like, there's no today two ways about it. But I was in a very vulnerable position. So we very quickly got into this, like, super intense relationship, that was really lovely at the start, like it truly was, you know, and, yes, we had a very problematic relationship. But you know, every person has some really good parts to them, which is very true of this. And we had so much fun together. I was in kind of a an unstable living situation, and ended up having to leave my like third house in a short period of time, because the landlord wanted to sell it. And my partner at the time also was having issues with her she was living, so we decided to move in together really quickly. And I think that is what really, I guess, was the crux of the issue. Like we didn't truly know each other. When you don't live with someone, you don't really, you see a lot of them, but you don't get to see all sides of them. And it was when we started living together in person that that was when all of the cracks on the issue started to show up. And I, I started to feel afraid every day like that was, I'd never been in a situation like that before where I'd had to fear for my safety. You know, in my own home, and it's a really, it's an awful experience. It's, it's very, it's like waking up every day, and a wave is drowning you. That's the only way I can describe it, it was very painful.
Laura Louise 22:52
It sounds like it. And it really when you the way you paint that picture of how it came about. I imagine a lot of people will be hearing some of their own experiences to varying degrees listening to that, because it is that thing of instability and vulnerability, creating the space for two people to kind of become an unhealthy environment very quickly. And depending on the setup, and the people that are involved like that can turn into abuse and unfair in your own home.
Val 23:26
Yeah, and I think like it was such a unique set of circumstances as well. Like, we ended up moving to a suburb that was kind of far away, not far away, but like a 10 minute drive to my friends. We were in lockdown. So the limit that we could go was five kilometers from the house. And you weren't supposed to see somebody from another house at the time. And I had been kind of sick on and off like I I was having there was like all the bushfires that happened in Australia around a time and COVID was really kicking off. And it was just a really like, it was like a pressure cooker situation. And I think very quickly it went from me being on like Cloud Nine about this amazing person that I've met and this amazing relationship that I was in and, you know, it was like coming out to people for the first time. Like, it was such a hard moment to be like, I'm I'm queer, I'm in love, I've met this amazing person to this complete 182. Like, oh God, like what is my life like I'm I'm genuinely frightened all the time and and having nobody having no support system there in that moment was just so awful. Like I hadn't literally no, but I no validation. So like, I was living in a vacuum. I was experiencing all of these really awful things in my own home like, you know, aggression, outbursts. Alcoholism, like so many intense, very difficult to navigate things with nobody to kind of support me in that and like that. I think that's something that I wrote about in the article is I would like Google at nighttime being like, is this abuse what is abuse? What same sex abuse like what are what can women be abusive? It was so because I think when we think about abuse It's always so like, you know, heterosexual males is where our brains go. So for me, I felt almost like I was betraying my own identity I still identified as a cis woman at the time. And I felt like I was betraying this. It was so confusing, it was just so confusing. And I think that's why I ended up staying in this situation probably a lot longer than I would have. If I'd had validated external validation from the professionals that I tried to get help from, or from my workplace or, or been able to regularly connect with friends who really did try to support me, but not being able to see each other and being in a house with the person that's creating the situation. It was very difficult, like, like, you know, my phone to check my phone all the time. Every time my phone went off, who was contacting you? Why are they contacting you? You can't speak to this person, you know, very, it was a very, it was a very hard situation to be in.
Laura Louise 25:48
And I think especially like what you were saying about having to look up like, is this abuse, like knowing something was wrong, feeling fear, but then not having that kind of, I guess, there not being any visibility around us, which again, is I'm extra grateful that you're speaking about this today. And also, I want to ask again, if you're comfortable to the kind of you said, you know, by phone checking, alcoholism, isolations. Like what ways did it? Did the abuse really portray itself just for anybody that's listening, that might also be having that feeling in their stomach? Where they're like, Oh, I think that might be me.
Val 26:23
Yeah, I think I think abuse is different in different situations. So, you know, like, I don't want to give an exhaustive list of here's what abuse looks like, because it can be so many things. But for me, it was really that kind of coercive of control. So, yeah, like, who were you speaking to? Why are you speaking to them not being allowed to see certain people, outbursts like everyday at home, very aggressive, frightening, like I was, like, very scared. And it was interesting. Like, I kind of always thought it was only in private, but I remember we had a good tradesperson come to the house. And I'll never forget the look on his face when she like, was having this outburst. Like he looked scared of her. And that was such a, like, I would say, that was one of the turning points where I was like, Oh, if he's looking at her like this, then maybe my assumption of the situation is correct. Like, this isn't okay. And actually, my sister and my youngest sister moved over to Australia at the poor, the poor thing at the very start of the pandemic, she had such a terrible time. And, and I remember her, like saying, they stayed with us for six weeks at the start. And I remember her saying, like, what is going on here like this is this is a really, something's really wrong in this situation. And to be fair to her, she would like ring me every single day until I left to be like, you like, are you? Okay? What's happening today? Why aren't you leaving? And I think it was her, like consistent support through that period that finally, and a couple of like other big moments that finally made me go, I don't even know who I am anymore. Like, I'm broken. Like, I am such a like, outgoing, confident, happy, positive person, although I don't like the word positive that much. But you know, like, I'm, I'm generally such a, like, there's a lot of life in me, I think. And I feel like that was completely gone to the point that I couldn't function and I had to get out. So I think, I think that what you need to do in that situation is realize that you actually can stop the abuse. And like, no matter how much I was, I tried to negotiate so much all the time in the moment being like, what, what's the problem? Why are you feeling like this, like what's created this anger and like, often, it was something that I would have done or said, but I wouldn't, it was a quite a normal thing that I was doing or saying, like, I wouldn't have washed the dishes, right? Or I would have spoken to someone on the phone and on the phone in a tone that wasn't approved, or I would have spent an extra hour at work that day, or would have gone to a zoom party with my friends. You know, when like, in the evening, at least, it could have been anything. But I think, I think realizing that I couldn't no matter what I tried to do in this situation, I couldn't stop it. And I think that was a that was I was like I was losing myself. And I was like I have to leave or I'm going to hit the point of no return here.
Laura Louise 28:55
And I think that's the thing for a lot of people, isn't it that you were doing normal things, it's that the reaction to them isn't normal and isn't healthy. So no matter what you tried to edit or change, whatever you did, somehow was always going to elicit those reactions in the person because they're abusing you. And you said that you lost yourself your sister sounds incredible. Because it can be very difficult to continuously reach out to a person almost, especially if you love them so much to keep you know, and you see them and pain and struggling. And how did you eventually leave there and what was the the end of that situation? And how did you start healing?
Val 29:35
Yeah, I think yeah, I think, you know, reflecting on it now. Like, again, to use the word complexity. It's just so complex, like, I feel so much. I feel so much like compassion for this person. Like I think they had a really tough road in their life and which I didn't know that like, you know, it takes a while to learn all these things about somebody. So I do do, it was so hard to I loved her so much like so much love, so much empathy and so much like such an urge to want to protect her from all the terrible things that have happened to her in her life. And that was so conflicting with this, this shell of a human I'd become so I found trying to leave really, really difficult. But eventually it hit a point where I was like, I'm not I'm not okay, like, and my mental health was so bad at the time that I didn't know even how to begin, I don't think I realized how bad it was. But I also don't think I even knew how to begin to get myself out of that hole. So I one day packed up everything I remember trying to think about, like, what is my most valuable thing that might get, you know, destroyed in this in this trying to leave process. I packed up my car and went to stay with this couple that I'd met, who were like friends of friends. They're in their 60s, the most. Oh my god, the most beautiful people. I think I missed them. Like it's so funny because one of them their whole family is from the same area in Tipperary that my parents live. So we had this really beautiful connection and they had this Airbnb in their garden, which was like, sorry, Kath, basically a glorified shed full of spiders. And like, and that being Australia, quite the grim type of spider. I'm not afraid of anything like that. But oh, it was there was moments. I'd be in bed and I would just see the spider, I'm sorry, went and stayed there for quite a stretch of time. And that was the most awful, like awful, I would say six weeks of my life like it was so painful. It was I was like I was getting these calls all day every day. And I was still kind of in the limbo of I hadn't quite gotten to the point of blocking her yet. calls and texts and calls and texts and calls and texts, like all day and night, all of the time, it was really horrendous. But I knew once I was away from it, I got this real clarity about how bad it was. And knowing that I couldn't go back to that situation. And of course, that wasn't the end like the relationship was over at that point. But trying to then fully extricate my life from her was really, really, really difficult and took a long time. And there was a lot many more abusive situations that I ended up in as a result of trying to, like separate my life from hers. Like it got to the point where I was like, Should I just leave everything that I own in this country there and like not bother with it, because it's quite very frightening to try and go back and get it. I remember I got a delivery of toilet paper to my sent accidentally to the old house. And I was terrified that my new address was going to be on the box. So I was trying to judge the time she was at work to go with a friend to drive to the house to get the box of toilet paper from the front door. Before she got there. In case you didn't find out what my new address was because I had to move a couple of times, so that she wouldn't know where it was living. So it was yeah, it was really, really, really painful. But how I started healing was the amazing people in my life. I there is never enough thanks that I could give to those people for what they did for me. Like, I thought I have very good friends in Ireland. Very beautiful people in my life here. But they just they treated me like I was literally one of their own, like one of their family members. And even though we were still in lockdown, they just supported me in a way that I'd never been supported before by through friendships. And would you believe like the person that I was closest to, during that time was actually worked in domestic violence, and was queer. So they they valid, they were able to validate my experiences in a way that no one else had been able to. And it was through that, like, bear hug of friendship as any way I can describe it that I started to come around. And then someone found this therapist, I'd seen a couple of therapists that had really invalidated me and made me feel really terrible. But then somebody recommended this therapist to me who I still see to this day who I adore. And she she really, really, really helped me to start to begin to heal, which has taken a long time. But I feel like I'm I feel like I've moved on from it now, which is why I can speak about it. Which is great.
Laura Louise 33:54
That's incredible, because it was such a horrific situation. And also so early on in your journey of kind of coming out and being out and the pandemic and everything. And I guess thinking I know, like you said about abuse, people's experiences are unique to them. And there's so many different types. But I'm struck by what you said about what your queer friends did to support you. So what were the kinds of things they did, that you found, personally, the most helpful at that time that just like kept you going?
Val 34:27
They were just there. And they were like, they were like rocks when they were there like they they just checked in. Like they would just text me call me ask me how I was make sure that I was eating like, really basic things, but they consistently showed up day after day after day after day. And like, you know, I think in Ireland we tend to be people pleasers. So that's something that I've also had to grow out of and you know, like transform that part of myself as well. And I had never truly like be with friends but like I actually They need support. Like I was always the one that was giving the support and very rarely asking for the support. And in this situation, I had nothing to give like I was broken. And they just like, stepped into all the cracks of me. And like started just very slowly put me back together through the tiniest actions, but really, it was just consistently being there for me and listening and validating me and remember one friend, I can't remember who it was now. It's like, you have to read this book. And when you read Oh, my friend Sam, Sam was like when you read this book, you it will help you start to make sense of your experience. But like set a day aside, because you're gonna cry the whole way through. And the book is called In The Dream house by Carmen Mikado. hope I'm pronouncing that right to be bits, Machado. But it was I could have written that book myself like word for word. And remember reading that and being like, in bits for like, two days after I read it, which isn't uncommon for me when it comes to anything cultural, love a good cry. Um, but oh, I cry like everything. I just feel so deeply. But um, yeah, I read that book. And I remember thinking like, okay, I get it now. And I'm ready to like, I'm ready to start to try to move on. That was a real moment.
Laura Louise 36:13
That is incredible. I guess I think what? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm hearing here that like to your sister and your friends, consistency was a real key. Because I think as well as you know, Irish people being people pleasers. So if someone says, are you okay? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm fine. when really you're like, Please help me. There's the other thing about not wanting to bother someone. But that it sounds like it's really important to just keep trying, keep trying. And because of that, I think we know something's not right for your friend, whether it's situation they're in or you can see they're not themselves. But we don't want to push to in case you annoy them or push them away. But it sounds like it's quite important when someone's at like their darkest point to just hear hear from someone that loves them
Val 37:00
Yeah, I felt like I'd spent so long not being heard. And I'd felt so long, like not even listening to myself that I think they came in and I think yeah, they just like incredible people like I, I often reflect on how much service like members of our community do for each other, like how much we care for each other in a practical sense, unlike how that's not recorded anywhere. Like I think it's so interesting, like, you know, we look at statistics and facts and information. I'm like, actually the queer community support because it you know, like, the queer community has very high incidences of mental health issues, totally understandably. And I feel like all the all the voluntary support that we give each other because we are so caring goes unnoticed. And I feel like there's we should be recording it. I'm not sure how but I feel like we should.
Laura Louise 37:46
Well here! I really agree with you. I feel it's always recorded how much we suffer. But what isn't seen is how resilient we are and how incredibly supportive we are. I know for a lot of people that can really struggle in the community. But I feel like it's not a community. And I hate those words. And there is a lot of infighting at the moment. But I truly, truly believe if you need help, and you are able to like not not everyone's able to ask for it, you're able to ask for it. And people will go out of their way they don't even have to know you will. And they'll try and connect with you or other people to get the help that you need. And I really firmly believe that about our community. I think it's very, very special.
Val 38:27
Yeah, I think I think you know, when we think about community as well, a community can be two people. Like it doesn't have to be 30 people, you know, when we talk about community, like the community that I had, at that time supporting me was very small, like it was probably three or four people that really pushed me through that time. And and that believed in me that I could they had met me before all of this had happened. And they knew who I was. And they believed that I could get back to that person. So I think that was it was their belief in me. And even though it was such a small amount of people that they like, yeah, they just they were like this. Yeah, there's nothing I could ever do to repay them for like what they did to me did to meet it for me.
Laura Louise 39:06
And you don't have to repay them. Because I think another beautiful point you made is it's okay sometimes when you just need to take from your friends, like you said, You've nothing to give. If your friends are offering you that support and love. They're doing it because they couldn't give it and you can just take and then there will be a time when you heal when you can give it I think sometimes we feel like something has to be like this 5050 balance and being that people pleaser like, Oh, I'm too much of a mess right now. Or I can put that on them that if people are offering that support and you feel like you need to take it then take it
Val 39:40
on Yeah 100% and like how I tried to live my life is you know, coming always coming from a place of empathy and care for myself and for other people. And I feel like if you just hold that as your guiding principle then you can't really go wrong. Like I think that means that when you need something you can ask for it. But when you have the capacity to give you can give back and like I think the reality is for most of us, we more lean into the giving back bucket a lot of the time than we do into the taking bucket or needing needing support bucket. But I think yeah, there's enough to go around. So I think it's like, yeah, it's um, it's just showing up for each other, isn't it? And, and, like, you know, reaching out and asking someone if they are okay. And I really do having lived away and come back, like Australians do not people please like, it's just not in their nature. And that, to me was so confronting and refreshing to be in this environment of like, friends calling me out on my bullshit as well. You know, like, if I, like if I was doing or saying something, and they didn't agree with it, like, one of my friends would be like, no, come on, like, what are you on about? And I'd be like, Yeah, you're right, and then owning it and being like, yeah, I am actually wrong. Or, ya know, maybe I didn't show up for myself there how I'd like or I'm pushing my responsibilities onto someone else, or whatever it looks like. And yeah, I must say like, it can be quite challenging to live this way. But I'm actually much happier for it.
Laura Louise 40:57
It sounds very honest. Yeah. Sometimes I cringe when I use the word authentic.
Val 41:03
Yeah, it truly is. And I think that isn't that what we're experiencing is we're trying to be our most authentic selves. So they kind of go hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Louise 41:13
That sounds incredible. Thank you so much. Before we wrap up, is there any important message that you'd like to just close out with that? Yeah, that you want to make sure you say, today?
Val 41:27
Yeah, I think, I think that whole experience for me, was probably, I don't like to say like, the best thing that happened, because it was truly awful. Like, it really was, but it's changed me completely, who I am as a person. And I really like who I am now. And I really like how I shop for myself and my life. And I'm really like, you can feel so much shame in those situations. And I did for a long time felt like deep shame about what happened to me. But now I feel really proud that I pushed through and come out the other side. So I think there's kind of two things. One is like, I think I mentioned already, the only person that can stop the abuse is the abuser. So you know, get the help. Like, if you don't get the help the first or the second or the third time, don't stop looking for the help. Because eventually you'll knock on the right door and the right person will be there to support you and validate you and help you find ways to get out of the situation and move forward. And make like you know always leave an unsafe situation. Easier said than done. And there's a privilege and being able to do that sometimes. But yeah, I think that's number one. But number two is, I always pay respect back to the struggle. The struggle, the struggle of the last couple of years of my life to get back to this point has been immense, like it's not a it's not a straight line from terrible time to good time. It's like up down in around over back. You know, I like I always think it's probably like I had to grieve, what I went through, like I had to grieve who I was before, I had to like grieve for the parts of me that change, I lost somebody that I really loved. Like, like my, I would say like my first true true love. Like I lost that. And that's really sad, you know, but I also had to grieve the betrayal of like what had happened to me in the situation. So it was it was it was a really difficult time and a really like transformative time. And I no matter what I go through my day to day now like, you know, like dealing with some we all deal with really difficult things in our life. I kind of feel like no, I can stand on my own two feet and I got through that I'll get through anything. Yeah.
Outro 43:29
Well, that's it for today. Thanks for listening. And we will also say a special thank you to Val for speaking to us for this episode. If you or someone you know needs support in relation to domestic abuse, you can conduct Women's Aid on 1800 341 900. Dublin lesbian line is support service for the LGBTQ ai plus community and Ireland. DLL is run by volunteers and relies heavily on voluntary contributions. So we will greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer. And before we go we want to as always say a big thank you to our very talented musician Chris Gebhardt for writing their theme music of women's there. We want to thank as always Dublin pride for sponsoring this season. Lastly, if you liked the podcast, please spread the word. Thank you for listening and see you next time.