The fifth episode of Women STAR features journalist and TV presenter, Zainab Boladale. At the age of 20, Zainab became known as the first Afro-Irish woman on Irish TV news, and she spoke to us about representation of people of colour in the media, growing up queer in County Clare, and how she tackles online harassment.
You can listen to the podcast on Spotify, itunes, Acast, and Soundcloud and you can listen here now: http://bit.ly/Acastep5Zainab
You can listen to the podcast on Spotify, itunes, Acast, and Soundcloud and you can listen here now: http://bit.ly/Acastep5Zainab
Episode 5 Transcription
Intro
And welcome to women STAR Dublin lesbian line’s new podcast created to showcase the stories within the LGBTQAI community, specifically the stories of women STAR, which includes queer, nonbinary and transgender people. We want you to feel included whatever way you present yourself to the world so if you have a story you want to tell get in touch with us at www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Today’s guest is journalist and TV presenter, Zainab Boladale. We spoke to Zainab about representation of people of colour in the media, racism in Ireland, and how she deals with online harassment, but first she began by telling us what it was like to grow up queer in Co, Clare.
Zainab Boladale [ZB]: So growing up in Ennis I don't think I knew of anyone who was out as such. Or maybe I was just too young to know of anybody but I think the first time I realised that my sexuality was not straight, did not fit in this 'guy's only' category was around I think 13, and I think that definitely - the realisation was definitely influenced by Tumblr, and like by seeing queer characters on TV such as the L Word, or Sugar Rush.
Laura Louise [LL]: Oh yeah Sugar Rush
ZB: There was a bunch of stuff actually around that time that I was like ‘oh my god this is interesting.’
Both: laughter
LL: Sooo interesting.
ZB: Yah, and then I think I came out in a very non-official way at 13 in secondary school and I think that was definitely aided by the fact that there was another girl in that class that definitely had queer tendencies. And we used to say things like 'we're girlfriends' and all that kind of stuff together. It was like, yeah we were saying that for laughs but also it was like ‘ooooh are we or not? What's the story here?’ And actually, very interestingly, all my life I've just kind of managed to find the gay people whichever spaces I'm in! So there was that girl, and then there was another girl, who people used to make fun of her, say ‘oh my god she's a dyke’ and all that kind of stuff and she used to fight it a lot and I think actually she's out now. But I think she was so like, she was so bullied by it that she would never, she would never ever say back then. But definitely, all 3 of us used to hang out, all the time and it's so funny because sometimes I go back on my old, old Facebook, and on my Facebook I'm like holding one of them like this and the other one like this in both arms and it's like mmmmm clearly there's a lot of emotions.
LL: The signs were there.
ZB: Honestly the signs were there! So coming out, like I think people were just like ‘Zainab's a bit cookoo’. I'm quite an open person in general, I don't hide stuff about myself, so that was like 13, and em it's funny because at home I think I've had several coming outs. So when I was 13 I had the genius idea of creating a like collaborative YouTube LGBT page -
LL: that does sound genius!
ZB : - with people I met from Tumblr. [laughter] It's so funny coz, am I was around 15 and there was 5 of us, and one of them was from Canada, and the other one was from the UK and another one was from America and we all thought we were so cool! And we all uploaded our first videos about you know - so the idea was, everybody would, I was the 'B' at the time and then someone was the 'L' and someone was the 'G' and the 'T' and all that kinda stuff. So that was the idea, that we’d all represent, and we'd all have a day of the week to post stuff.
LL: That's really coordinated! That actually sounds brilliant!
ZB: Don't talk to strangers on the internet unless you have a great idea like that! [laughter] So we all uploaded our first video, and I was editing or whatever on the computer, this was at 15 and am, I think I had left it on the family computer and I think my mom would come in and be like 'what is this? what is bisexual?' because she didn't know what that was, and I was like...so then I deleted the channel!
Both: laughter
LL: altogether?
ZB: Altogether! And I was like guys I can't do this if you want to do this by yourself, you can. Because I just panicked! Because I was like, I don't know, the way she had said it -it was like I was doing something terrible you know.
LL: And did she see your video?
ZB: Yah! She watched the video! And she just didn't know what I was talking about you know. And then just the way she said it, I freaked out completely. Even though I was so excited about [it] and all that kinda stuff, for some reason even though I was uploading it to YouTube and stuff I thought no one would ever watch it, like people wouldn't watch it, even though that's the whole point of YouTube?
LL: I get you.
ZB: So for me the fact I stupidly left it on the family computer because I was editing on the family computer it just didn't connect to me at the time that yah maybe other people are using this computer yknow? [laughter] Maybe when you put stuff in documents –
LL: In an open shared space
ZB: - it will be opened by someone else! So anyway, I just freaked out, and deleted it all. And she was like ‘who are these people you're talking to I don't know these people, they don't look like they're from Ennis’, obviously. Because yknow, how many people from Ennis have bright blue hair? [laughter] When you go to rural Ireland blue hair is not a, it's not a - not that blue hair is not a thing in rural Ireland but you just...
LL: I know what you mean
ZB: The gays always have colourful hair, that's essentially what I mean. It's like a signpost for I-may-be-queer you know, [LL laughter] so she saw a bunch of people with colourful hair - and I had colourful hair at the time as well, I used to have these braids and on the packet they said Galaxy -
LL: Ooohhh
ZB: So it had hints of blue and red and purple... So I was also signposting myself basically.
LL: Going the full rainbow.
ZB: Absolutely, little hints. I thought I was so cool.
Both: Laughter
LL: Little hints. You actually do sound really cool though. Way cooler than I was so.
Both: Laughter
ZB: Not at all. So then I moved to an all-girls school at 16 and then there I had my first girlfriend and I was like hmm interesting. And I think that kind of cemented the fact that yes I am, I am queer and being in an all-girls school - I don't know if anybody else has had this experience but if you were accused of being gay in an all-girls school it was like the worst thing ever. It was the worst thing ever. So like we were never like ‘we're the signpost lesbians in the all-girls school’. And there were other girls who definitely were queer too.
LL: Of course
ZB: But we knew that some of them were, you know, doing stuff, but you'd never signpost it like this person is also [queer] you know.
LL: Mmhmm.
ZB: But like everybody knew but they didn't know if that makes sense. Nobody talked about it but it was obvious you know. We weren't changing our Facebook statuses but (LL laughter) we had like...you know what I mean!
LL: I definitely know what you mean.
ZB: There's only so many times you can go on after school dates that are just friends meeting up... you know... so it was quite evident. So me and that partner - well we didn't move together because we were just going to college - so like we ended up both in Dublin, so it was the end of that relationship, am, when I went to Pink Training. The Pink Training I had gone to before I had gone to the bisexual safe space and then it's so funny the second Pink Training I went to the lesbian safe space not because I thought I was a lesbian I was just curious right. I was like I'm just gonna go and see what they talk about because I've already been to the bisexual safe space. And then it was so funny because I was in a room full of women and they were all talking about being lesbians and whatever, all that kind of stuff, and I was like...it was like a lightbulb moment, I was like, wait a minute, I was like - I think that's more me! And it was like, my friend Hannah, she was so offended that I didn’t come to the bisexual safe space with her - she was like ‘you just don't wanna hang out with me!’ and I was like no I'm just curious what they're talking about and she's like ‘you know what they're going to talk about - lesbian stuff!’ I was like, I've been to the bisexual space before, so I know what it is yknow, I just want to hear what they have to say and then when I came out of that workshop the lesbian safe space, and I turned around to my friends and I goes, I think I might be a lesbian and they were like that actually makes a lot of sense. And I was like, ‘Why!!! What do you mean that makes a lot of sense?’ and they were like’ all your male crushes look like girls’ and I was just thinking back to everyone I was like...oh my days! All of my male crushes are very very very feminine! And then I realised, I have been living a lie! I thought I knew the whole thing already but no, it was so funny. So that was like my stages of being out essentially.
LL: And how were you when you realised you were a lesbian?
ZB: I was like I don't really know. First I set my Tinder to girls only and it made the world of difference! Because like the random messages you get from guys, like, having that filtered out was like a whole new clarity of a dating landscape. So that was like.. and then it's so funny because then coming out to my mom who is Nigerian and very traditional like if you're queer in Nigeria you just keep that to yourself. Marry a man and hope no one ever finds out. Obviously there are gay people existing in Nigeria but you just do the traditional straight marriage all that kind of stuff and whatever you want to do on the side no one wants to talk about it as long as you socially are straight, you know. And it's so funny because at the moment, the first I've ever seen is a lesbian YouTuber Amara The Lesbian, she's absolutely amazing and she's openly out and her and her partner live openly in Nigeria which is a country where it's criminalised at the moment. 14 years in jail just for being out and gay, but she was saying in her videos, which I watch like, religiously, she was saying if you have money to sustain yourself nobody will interfere with you. It's when you're in need of other people, like she runs an egg farm her partner works in tech I think or something like that and she does like photography and videography, so if you can sustain yourself where you're not depending on anybody including men, especially men, you're fine, you're left alone because people don't want to piss you off because people don't want to piss you off because you have enough money to defend yourself. Whereas if you unfortunately are reliant on someone else that's where the complications come for you as a queer person. Say if you're reliant on your parents, coz traditionally Nigerian women wouldn't move out of their family home so why would you be coming out if you're still reliant on your parents you know. Even if you're working, you don't move out until marriage to a man, so you're in a way, psychologically, you're reliant on people, so. And I was thinking that in reference to myself, and it's like you know, and because I'm out and in the Nigerian community I wouldn't be like ‘oh look at me’, yknow, because socially and mentally it's not acceptable. But I'm quite open and out if someone was to ask me I'd be like yeah but I don't go screaming it from the rooftops because I know there's existing cultural negativities attached to queer people, which unfortunately is very, very, very strong. Like queer people are demonised essentially. Which a lot of it comes from religion, I wouldn’t' even say it comes from culture I think it comes from religion because it’s like am, it's like you're not going to get into heaven, that’s against whatever religious book you follow, because Nigeria is split between Islam and Christianity so it's not even about what religion you follow, it's about it's not right, it's a sin, you know that's what it comes down to. So it's funny coz I feel like I've had a multitude of being out you know. And it's funny because I'll hear things from the Nigerian community like you know, I think Zainab is -
LL: here?
ZB: Here, yes I would hear things being like you know I think she's gay or whatever, whatever, I'm not here to prove anything to you, it's quite obvious you know I mean there was a rainbow flag on my page [social media] for about 2 years so I mean, I'm not hiding anything, like it's there. And it's so funny when people are like did you know Zainab was gay and I'm like I literally wear a rainbow bracelet and it's very interesting because it's not something I've ever been hiding or anything like that.
LL: But I guess people aren't expecting it because it's so culturally – yeah.
ZB: Yeah. For me like, I think for them, for me to be - I don't even know how to explain it, it's like they just don't expect it or believe it, or they think it's just a rumour. It's very interesting to see the narrative. For me, coming out is like, it's in different social groups - I came out with friends, then I had my new coming out in college, then the coming out to my mum, which is still a bit murky! I'm out to her but she's like...nah it's a phase.
LL: I was gonna ask you, if that's ok, how is your mom?
ZB: It's a phase, you know. And I love her to bits and all that kind of stuff -
LL: And is she ok with the phase or is she just patiently waiting..?
ZB: - it's more so let's not discuss the phase. When the phase is done…
LL: When you get a nice husband...
ZB: Absolutely, you know, she's like 'I have a husband, I have a guy who would make good husband material' and I'm like ‘interesting, can we move on what's for dinner?’
LL: Yes, I hope he will be a great husband for someone else.
ZB: Right? For someone else, girl please.
Both: Laughter.
ZB: So it's very interesting because for me I can understand like the struggles that queer people who aren't like who aren't accepted socially. Like my partner is Bulgarian and would also have similar stories of coming out in Eastern Europe, like in Bulgaria. And while it's like there are queer people actively living and open it's still not socially acceptable to be [gay]. And she'd be like ‘there's only one lesbian bar and I wouldn't even go there’. And I'm like ‘girl’, and she's like’ no you just wouldn't go there that's not where the good lesbians are! It's like the good lesbians are quiet about it’ and I'm like ‘girrrrl’.
LL: That really says so much.
ZB: It says a lot you know what I mean? So it's very interesting.
LL: Mmm. and was it difficult for you, trying to balance - growing up in Ireland, coming out, going to things like Pink Training, and then the Nigerian culture, that you grow up with or feel a part of - I don't know how you consider it?
ZB: Em I think, it's like, it was incredibly difficult because I felt like in some friend groups I felt like I could only be friends with people if I didn't bring that up. You know what I mean. And I love my culture, I love being Nigerian, I absolutely love it and I would never give it up you know.
LL: Yeah.
ZB: But I felt like in my Nigerian circles that was not to be brought up at all. And even now there's some friends where it's only now that I think to some friends I'd bring it up, but I could feel like there's a kind of quietens in the room then they're like ‘so anyway! We're talking about this guy crush I have’...yknow like, and I'm like OK clearly my conversation starter is not what we're talking about.
LL: OK that's still not where we're going!
ZB: And it's interesting because then I felt like, back when I was in college, I felt like it was only within my Irish friend group that I could be - that side, that I could talk about that side, that I could talk about dating, things that young people are talking about, you know. So it just felt like there was an occasional mismatch. But it's only in recent times that I've started to meet other black Nigerians who are like, rainbow flags and all out there, you know what I mean. And it's funny that change has only happened in the last 3 years for me. So it's mad that in the last 3 years those people - they were there but they were also thinking, I can't talk about this, I can only talk about this in my Irish friend groups.
LL: And from, even I can see the massive increase in visibility but I know people have said before to me, that they, em, because it's so ingrained in people that there's no such thing as gay in Nigeria they felt 'well I'm the only one then'.
ZB: I genuinely, I genuinely thought that I was the only out person in Ireland!
LL: Well I can understand why you'd feel like that.
ZB: I thought the out people are probably married.
LL: Yes, or in London.
ZB: Right or in London! I thought where are all these cool gay people in the States or in London, that are also with African roots. The fact that UK Black Pride has been going for 15 years is that their official name? and I was like what!
LL: Wow, it's interesting. In comparison to here where -
ZB: Yeah a year!
LL: Wow and what do you think about Black Pride being here?
ZB: I think it is so needed. Because like I mean it was only recently, I don't know if it was circulating in the Irish community, but in the Irish Nigerian community there was a young boy whose mother was very, very verbally abusive towards him and we came to find out later it's because he is still trying to figure out his sexuality. So at first people just thought she was just a very abusive mother and like, I don't know I think it was my sister who said it to me the reason his mother was fighting him constantly in the house, he said the reason my mother and my brother and dad hates me. And I was like that's a very strange thing to say and my sister told me a few weeks later that's coz he's not sure of his sexuality, he's not sure where he stands. And I was saying to my sister I was like, it's actually really, really good that we have at least something like Black Pride Ireland to show that you are not alone there are probably others experiencing what you are experiencing right now. And I think that's something people forget, it's different when you are - and I know everybody has struggles coming out - but when you are from a culture, regardless of what country you live in, when you're from a culture that doesn't acknowledge LGBT people it's doubly harder because you're like my other gay friend gets to have this experience whereas this is my experience at home. And I know you can still be white Irish and get kicked out of your home for being gay but you're twice as likely, if not an umpteenth amount of times (as likely) to have struggles as home because of that. And it's really heart-breaking for me, because it's like I know I have experienced that in the past in a different capacity and it's heart-breaking that that still happens other people, because I know psychologically it had a lot of impact on me. And it's like, it breaks my heart to see that still being the case. And I know it's hard to like, just be like oh I wish everybody was happy the under the rainbow, all that kind of stuff, but it's just very, very hard.
LL: And you're right I agree, so that people can know about struggles other people are having but also a sign of hope I think as well. Like when we were talking in preparation for this and you mentioned you know that em it's important to see the positive things -that you can live and be happy and if you choose to to get married, that you can have friends and be out, that it's not only em that you don't have to keep it in all the time, but also to acknowledge the very, very real and probably ongoing then difficulties of coming out and being out. And I guess sometimes it's about building the resilience in people, that you will face this but there is a Black Pride community and you'll have a community ready to welcome you, instead of you're fighting this on your own.
ZB: Yeah. Yeah and I think it's so important because I know like and I'm not even speaking about the Nigerian community, I know there was when Black Pride Ireland was set up there was a lot of backlash against them like ‘why do you need this section aren't we all under the same rainbow?’ and all that kind of stuff. But like it's hard for someone who has never experienced what black queer people have experienced, to say this is not necessary you know, they can't say that because you don't know the underlying reasons why it's needed even if it's like they don't do anything at all - even existing is enough for some people, you know what I mean. And that's how I think about it, it's not about having 3 different Prides or parades it's about, just existing it gives someone a mental home. I think that's so important.
LL: Yes! Yeah. I think the more safe spaces we have for people the better. I don't see how anyone else having a safe space will threaten me I really, I don't get that. We've had trans guests on the podcasts and they get a lot of hate sometimes, not always, and then people saying yknow not having trans spaces and trans women but yknow it's ok for somebody to have their own space and also then be part of the wider community. It's like there's bi spaces, there's trans spaces, there can be black queer spaces, all those things are great - anything that increases safety and security for our people, our family, is a positive thing yknow.
ZB: Yes it's just like in the trans community there are experiences that are unique to trans people it's the same way in the black queer community there are experiences that are unique to black queer people and that's regardless of whether you're Nigerian, Angolan, Ethiopian, it's like so many unfortunately African countries they do criminalise homosexuality and its important that even If you are accepted in your family you still feel that you know. Because when I went to Nigeria 2 years ago I was like I better take off that rainbow flag just in case and I was with my mom it wasn't like anyone was going to grab me off the street but it was that mental fear. I need to make sure there's nothing about me That says that ‘I am this’ just to be safe because you already know that it's not acceptable.
LL: Taking off the signposts those signifiers
ZB: Exactly.
LL: Oh yeah what you said about communities…. I think it is especially important now because there are so many people growing up here who would have parents who come from countries who are still deeply embedded in those norms and expectations, and then a lot of the first generations of people who have grown up here in that mismatch or that kind of duality of growing up Irish and also of growing up Nigerian or like you said other countries that criminalise our identities anyway and trying to figure all that out. I think it's particularly important - it'll always be important but especially now, when there's so much still to be figured out. And so much in Ireland to still be figured out about I don't know, cultures and acceptance and creating spaces for people and opening dialogues as well. I think that visibility is more important than ever and not only for people who personally experience it, people who don't understand that there needs to be spaces but also for people who might have those prejudices to start seeing and getting some visibility and start normalising because if you never see something then it's easier to keep on 'oh this is wrong, this is bad' whereas when it's kind of all around you and it's normalised sometimes it can help to bring people along. Like I know a lot of people who have grown up here with parents that are from countries where it's illegal to be gay and the parents are sure it's like 'you got this from Ireland, it's a Western thing' like.
ZB: Do you know what I have heard that before. It's like, exactly that - 'don't take those traits, this is an EU thing'
LL: Yeah - oh EU, nice!
ZB It's interesting I didn't realise the EU had a strong -
LL: Gay agenda?
ZB: And this is not just me, I have a friend who is Polish who is like, yknow who was saying to me, because you know what's happening in Poland, we were having that discussion and she was saying that her family were like - and she's gay herself - and her family were saying 'we're not talking about your kind of gay, we're talking about that kind of gay, the Polish kind of gay, it's wrong'. Because I think she was born here and then she was like how is my type of gay different to the Polish type of gay you know, because they again see queerness in a different light because it's in Poland, but if it's in Ireland, that's the OK gay.
LL: That's part of who they are, these kids etc.
ZB: So it's very interesting that's why typical Nigerians genuinely believe that gay people don't exist or they're influenced by Western culture. And it's funny because one of our influencers, our big influencers, is a person called Bobrisky and they're an openly trans woman - well they call themselves Uncle and Aunty so I don't know what their pronouns are - they're an openly trans person, and they are loaded. And they have 2 million followers I think so, but because they are loaded and can afford anything like nobody questions them. And it's like, Nigerian police stopped their birthday party because they were like you can't show your gayness, but they're queerly living quite large and open and people are always commenting in the section like ‘show us x, y, z,’ you know but it's like there's 2 million Nigerians following this person, so do you hate gay people or not?
LL: Yes .And so, OK you mentioned this already that you've seen in the last kinda 3 years you've seen more Nigerian queer people, so how do you feel about black queer representation in Ireland at the moment, and even versus to how you came out?
ZB: Well first of all it's so so so so so so important. Because I mean when I was growing up, I'm sure there was but there was none that I knew of, and even going through stuff like Pink Training I think I was the only black person there, I think so. And it's so interesting one of my memories, and I didn’t realise this was something I did, so when I was in DCU I took part in the DCU Drag Race and there was another competitor Viola Gavis –
LL: Great name!
ZB: - and they said to me recently and this absolutely shook me and I'm not trying to make myself sound big or anything like that, but it was just, when they said this I was like oh my God, they said that I was the first person to give them make up to do drag. And I was like ‘What? Wait that happened?’ and they were like ‘yeah, you gave me make up - black make up because everyone else was white - to do my drag face’ and I was like that's mad, and it's like, essentially the point I'm trying to make there is like having queer black people who are open makes you feel comfortable to go to them, to say this is what I'm going through, how have you moved past this? How have you done this? And it's funny because I have a friend, now a friend, when I was working in a HR company, and she was so cool and she was the HR manager and I overheard her say - she's black by the way - and I overheard her saying 'oh I'm getting married to my fiancé soon' and then I heard like 'she' and I was like oooh [gasp] I was like oh my God she's getting married and she's black and to a woman!’ I was like you know, me typing away but I'm also like my ear leaning over and she's showing the ring and stuff like that and I'm eeeeee [excited sound]. And it's so funny because then I went onto her Instagram and I stalked the hell out of her. And I was like 'and her partner’s Irish!' and 'here's a picture with her and her partner and her parents!' and I was like 'oh my God it's possible!'. And it's so funny because several years later we've become friends now and I told her, I used to be like 'she's so cool coz she's a queer person who's married and she has the entire fantasy and her parents were at her wedding, you know and they go out for family brunches.' I was like 'you are living the dream.' (Both: laughter) And then she was explaining to me you know it wasn't always that easy, she too had that cultural fight, you know, that clash of this is who I am versus this is who you want me to be. And she was saying to me her fiancé is also very much like, she's not having anyone disrespect them
And her fiancé is a kind of take no nonsense kind of person, which she said helped her a lot in certifying this is the person I want to marry, you're either on board or you're off board, it's happening regardless. And it was like hearing her story it was like oh my God that's how I feel about things, like that's how I feel about sexuality, who I am, like I will never not be who I am, because someone else has a problem with it and that comes down to anybody regardless of how close you are to me. And it was like, I know that's easy for me to say, because I, I would consider myself a confident person but not everybody has confidence, not everybody has that self-assurance, and that I demand respect, not because I, I just need respect because I am a human being, and just because I choose to be a certain way and not choose but, you know, just because I am a certain way doesn't mean I should be looked down on you know. And I think that's so important, and I think young queer people, especially young black queer people, like need to be encouraged to feel that way about themselves because so often you're getting told 'you're not this, you're not that, you're not enough. You can't, you shouldn't, you won't' you know, and it's like even like some queer black people, I was listening to something recently and someone said that she came out as gay as well, I mean you can't hide black you but can hide gay, you know, she said she thought that if she came out as gay as well her company they would just think she was trying to tick all the boxes, and that she was just like, and I don't even know how she said it but I was like, girl! I get where you're coming from. Because she felt like yeah I can't hide being black like I'm a black woman in this tech company but I can control how people view me as a gay person, you know. And I was like that's very interesting, she feels forced that she has to hide that so she's not too big, she's not too present, she's not too - you know, she's very interesting.
LL: Don't take up too much space
ZB: Exactly.
LL: Wow. And actually you do exude a confidence, it's very eh, amazing to be around. It makes me sit up straighter. (ZB laughs) No it's fantastic. Where did you get that? How did you develop that?
ZB: Ammm. Jees Louise.
Both: Laughter
LL: Too big a question?
ZB: Am. I don't even know how to explain it, I think it definitely comes from being like, metaphorically, being beaten down so much. And I think that's where it comes from, because I'm not like an extroverted person or I'm not like, you know, I've never had so many friends or been so cool or anything like that and like it's so funny growing up most of my friends were in the internet and I know that is so sad, but em, most of my friends I made from Tumblr, or people I met on YouTube, which is so like, don't talk to strangers! but I did!
LL: That's such a teenage queer thing to do though isn't it?
ZB: I know I know (laughter) don't talk to strangers - but I totally did!! And I think like, a lot of people around me, I genuinely, genuinely, and I know people say this, I did not fit in. So I fit in with people that I met online, and I think because the people around me I felt like they were constantly beating me up, metaphorically, that I feel like I stuck onto people who were older and doing things that I wanted to do and exuded the personalities that I wanted, you know, and in some ways that kind of made me feel like, you know what, you can do whatever you want, you need to just put your shoulders up and stand straight and look at people in a way that like, sorry I'm rambling, but something I always say and I say it to myself, you know, people are either in your life for a season or a reason. And I also say, don't ask for things, demand. Demand things because you deserve those things you know and it's like I have those little slogans I say to myself, like repetitive mantras, and I always say like what are you grateful for today Zainab? Or waking up and making sure there is a highlight to my day, even if it's going to get bubble tea which I love. And I give myself these things because I think I felt very lonely for so long, and I felt very alone in my own world, that I kind of I think maybe, in a deluded way, built my own fortress so I felt that you know...yeah.
LL: That's beautiful thank you so much.
ZB: I'm rambling now
LL: You're not rambling! I'm just short of clapping and clicking my fingers like yes!
Both: Laughter.
LL: Thank you so much, because it is something when you meet somebody that is - especially women, young women, you know that so often young women are just told, like you said about your friend be quiet, stay in your box don't take up too much space. So sometimes when you meet somebody young and confident it's like how do I get to that! What is it? What's the magic thing!
ZB: Exactly even like Amara, the lady, the Nigerian lady on YouTube, her page is actually Amara the Lesbian, that's actually her page.
LL: I'm gonna look her up, that's a place I wanna be!
ZB: She's amazing, she's amazing. And even watching her, because she exudes the kind of confidence that I want you know, it's like to boldy live in a country, she says 'I love Nigeria, I want this, this is my home' and she's not going to stand down for anybody, even if it's illegal technically, you know. And it's like her talking about her coming out, her family not really talking to her, you know, she's just - she exudes the kind of confidence, if you can boldly live in a country that criminalises your sexuality, and do it online as well, that's the confidence I'm tryna get to you know.
LL: Wow yes. So it sounds like having people, like role models -
ZB: virtual role models!
LL: Well I guess as well there wasn't visibility for you growing up so you have to find them, find them online. Which I think it's why, I'm so grateful that you're here today because I picture you being a role model to people that are listening, and people that are far older than you as well, that are here in Ireland, not out and wishing you know ‘how do I get to that point?’ And also, yeah on why visibility is so important, we need things to aspire to, I think especially before coming out, and when you're figuring yourself out I think role models and visibility really help self-acceptance and knowing it's ok. And we need to kind of see people, who look like us, who mimic our values, or how we want to be how we want to come across, that's really important to help us to, us to…
ZB: Climb.
LL: Climb yeah.
ZB: It's very important it's so important.
LL: So you articulated that perfectly. Ok I'm not sure how to phrase this question because, or if I’m saying this properly because, what ways… OK there's been so much movement around the Black Lives Matter movement which is fantastic, devastating. Ireland is I think a complex country when it comes to race and racism but I do see more interest from people to educate themselves, ourselves, em I’m white. So what ways can, would you recommend from your personal experience that people in Ireland can educate ourselves about the black lives matter movement?
ZB: I think at the moment as terrible as the reasons for the Black Lives Matter movement reawakening, all the reasons for it reawakening as traumatic and terrible as it is, I think there has been a knock on effect of positive outcomes from it. And by that I mean there’s so many talented black young people in Ireland that are finally getting the recognition they deserve and that goes down to musicians, artists, creators, business owners. Even recently I've started following the Irish Black Owned page it's all about promoting Black businesses hair, beauty, you know skincare and everything like that and I think it's definitely shown what is an Ireland. I think a lot of people didn't realise this because again you can only know what within your own bubble. And I think even just by, and I know people laugh at social media stuff, but I think even just by following these pages because there is Black and Irish which is an Instagram page that does stories about black people in Ireland and educates, there’s Irish Black Owned and even through that you can follow some of the businesses and it's like following those pages and starting to broaden your own bubble, and just following, you know black people in Ireland, because you'd be very surprised at what's happening in black communities in Ireland – it might be very different to what's happening in Irish communities in Ireland. Like the conversations may be the same, but the viewpoints sometimes aren't. And even sometimes I'd be with my black friends, and I'd be like, and they'd tell me something and I'd be like oh I didn't know about that and they'd be like yeah because nobody is covering these things, or talking about these things except for black Irish people. And then I realised oh jees like I am living in two different worlds sometimes and I would love to see a future where all of that starts to merge. And I can see it with my younger sister because she was born here and it's so funny because like I'd have more of an Irish accent than my younger sister but that's because she just kind of hangs out with everybody, do you know where I'm coming from like, her friend group is just so so mixed which is great so I can see, her upcoming friend group they don't really - I think it's also influenced by Disney if I'm honest, because the Disney channel and their accents are all American and bish bash bosh. (Both: laughter) But anyway that's neither here nor there. (Both: laughter). I would just love to see a future where it's not the black Irish community or white Irish community, it's just the Irish community you know. And I think a lot of publications have done a great job of starting to invite black writers, black journalists and that's important. Because sometimes I think the intention can be great but the execution sometimes not - and I'm not saying just hire black people to write black stories, like I have several interests, I like hair, I like make up, you know I don't just want to be the black person who talks about black things you know my interests are wide and they range.
LL: But at the same time should there be white people writing black stories and you know…
ZB: I mean I would prefer if I wrote about braids you know, because I know about braids you know what I mean?
LL: Yes I should not be writing about braids!
ZB: You know what I mean! But it's like I think the conversations that we’re having are really really important now but I'd hope to see that those conversations grow to things about, everything in general, but it just means forefronting black Irish people in the things we do and I know that black people in Ireland are a minority but that doesn't mean we need to treat black people as a minority. I mean if I can get on the bus and see a few black people that means we are here enough to be included in industries, you know healthcare, creative - music, cinema, all that kind of stuff you know. It's important, it's so so so important and I think that's one of the biggest things people have realised through the Black Lives Matter movement is that things that are important to us, are important to us because we can relate to some of the experiences of being, of being, I don't want to say racially profiled because I think that's a unique experience to, not unique but that's an experience that's totally different in America, but I think we can relate to the experience of having racist actions or words thrown at us. And that's why I think that month was so so so heavy, and it was so - because when you wake up and you see that black people's existence and black people's rights are being discoursed, and you're like well I'm just going to go back to sleep, because the world hates me. You know because that's the message it sends, so it's important that we counteract those messages and say you know we will stand up against racist words in this country, you are safe in this country, regardless of where you are from, human decency and respect is deserved by everyone. I think it's really really really really really amazing that that is what we're seeing now. When I see white Irish people, being the first people to say 'what you said is racist' that brings me joy. Because it's like, someone like me shouldn't have to be like, this is racist. you know. I can, but I want to see that everyone is going to call out racism when they see it.
LL: And just on to something about protecting your mental health, you've already said some really great things about how you kind of built yourself up and built that confidence that's come from being metaphorically beat down all the time, and when it comes to racism and people in Ireland you get actions and words thrown at you - I think that's a very eloquent way of describing it - how have you built up ways to protect yourself from those experiences?
ZB: First of all, I kind of made the decision like I'm not going to argue with anyone online, like that's my cut off space. You can say anything you want - well I hope you don't - but you know the block button is my best friend. Because it's like I don't have to listen to things that are about me. Like if you have feedback and criticism - fair. But if it's personal than that is not right because you do not know me so you can't make a fair conclusion of what you think of me. Especially if it comes from a place of abuse, and a place of hatred, and a place of xenophobia, and a place of racism. And, am, I think, it's so interesting because when I started journalism, am I was the only black girl in my course. I mean I kind of expected that that would be the case, but it kind of solidified when I went into media, and then going events and being like 'yep just the only black girl here too'. Am, and thankfully at the time, all my friends in college were gay so it's, like, you know, I felt like you know we're all the merry marching people of...[laughter] So I was used to being part of a group of people who were different in different ways, so then it was like it was fine you know mentally it was fine. But then I think when I started to do proper work within the journalistic space and people would take my stuff and not even read the contents of the article but just put stuff about me. And I'm like just because you see my little tiny picture there you're gonna make a decision about me and not what I'm writing about. If you said, I don't like the way she wrote that sentence I'd be like cool but you saying like ‘N word’ this or you, just whatever whatever, just felt really like toxic and I remember back then, this is not with the company I'm with now, this was in the past, I just kind of - I showed it to my mom, and then she was like ‘oh right whatever whatever’ and then I put it up on Facebook and then you know people went and reported the page and whatever and then the cycle kept continuing and continuing, whatever I would do it would always get put on a forum or have comments underneath it yada yada yada and it was like, this feels kind of personal now. And then it kind of died down, oh it died down because I had stopped writing like news-news and I was writing opinion pieces which is lighter you know, and I think there's more news readers in general so I think that's why it kind of got railroaded and then when I started to work on television it's like you can see me now so you can have more of an opinion of me, and stuff was taken and bish bash bosh-ed together into a YouTube page that was dedicated to just hating black Irish people.
LL: That's disgusting.
ZB: That was literally the entire page. And there would be comments or whatever, and it's like we're all deeply twisted because we read negative things even though we know, like I knew, based on the title that it was going to be negative comments but still I read the negative comments you know and I showed my partner and I was like look yada yada yada and she was like ‘oh that's terrible’ and she was thinking about going to comment you know ‘how dare you’ and I was like it actually is not necessary you don’t need to argue with these people. And it was a repetitive cycle, and I was like, and I had complained about it and it was taken down, and then it kept going back up and I was like I'm not going to give this energy and I think whenever I'd see the stuff - and I saw stuff about my physical features I'd be like well I know I'm not ugly so that's clearly a lie, but then it was more stuff like ‘her voice is so grating, she can't even speak English properly.’ Like I knew that was also a lie but it was like...is my voice grating?
LL: Aw.
ZB: And because I used to talk really really really fast I was like, can I not speak English properly? Even though I've been speaking English my entire life! But I think it was just, it was more, I speak other languages so I was like is that what it is? Is that coming into things?
LL: It was closer to something you could worry about yourself.
ZB: Exactly, exactly. So I think psychologically even though I didn't realise at the time, it was at the very very back of my mind, I feel like I have little boxes in my head, so I put it in one of those boxes in my head. But I think psychologically the underlying tone was like you know there are people who don't like seeing you. Not because you of what you're doing, you know, they just don't like seeing you. Or you know being accused of being a diversity hire being accused of trying to have an agenda, I don’t know whatever they thought I had, and I think all of that played in the back of my mind to the point where I probably started to think a little bit that, am I - am I actually here because of my talent? Even though I knew, even though I knew I was hired based on what I did in the audition, not based on anything else. but you know the way, you just, you second guess yourself.
LL: Absolutely, it undermines you.
ZB: Yeah. Am and, I think just, and I don't know where any of this came from but I think it just came to a point where I was like, OK what can I do to safeguard my mental health? Because I have so much to worry about and this can’t be [part] of it. And if I'm gonna be here and do my job, and do what I chose to do, I can't let people who are online discredit me or make me feel less than or make me feel insecure, because that shows. So things I would do is like if there was a page I would instantly block it and I would always go to a positive thing I enjoy watching, maybe it's a YouTuber maybe it's like a really nice film I love sci-fi Doctor Who, so I used positive reinforcements, or lighting a candle. I don't know what it is about lighting candles, but lighting a candle just instantly makes me feel better. Or like getting bubble tea. I would just try to do things like - OK that's not true, and we’re not going to give that energy so here's what we can do. And I think sometimes, I see online, and it makes me really sad, people get trapped into debates about themselves. And I was like if I start to do that than that's going to chip away at me slowly. And it's like I will not fight with anybody about what they think of me because I know what I think of me and that is what matters the most to me and that is what matters the most to how I perform and what I bring. And it's like, I think something that really motivated me is like whenever I used to go into classrooms because you know I was on the children’s news programme, and the girls would be like staring at me with the eyes, you know how little kids stare at you with their eyes, like ‘oooooh I like your braids’ (Both: laughter) you know like the kids of colour there would be like ‘oh my mom says this about you and my mom says that she thinks you’re really cool’ or things like that or ‘I saw the article about you’, and I was like actually this is whose opinions matter! Not some random people behind their screens. These kids! With their eyes and their little tiny voices! Or they'd ask me question, they're like, they'd say things like ‘you look different’, and I'm like ‘different good or different bad?’ and they're like, ‘just different.’
Both: Laughter.
LL: They’re neutral.
ZB: And I'm like that's a compliment I think! And I'm like those are the opinions that mater, and it's like they can see me coming to their classroom in their eyes, and I'm not saying this for myself, in their eyes as a TV star, that's pretty cool. And it's like if someone had come into my classroom and like they had braids like me I'd be like ‘oh my God! Who are you?’ You know so I think that's why I had a mental resistance I was like OK this job is not about me or some guy on the internet or some person on the internet it's genuinely about the people I meet every day and by going into people’s homes which is what I do now I'm not going into schools. I'm going into people's homes and into people's communities and they see me and they ask their questions, you know x, y, z and everyone is usually very nice in general when people meet me. And people are genuinely curious I think people sometimes are genuinely curious because their bubble sometimes, not sometimes, but the majority of people’s bubbles who are of a certain age are white and Irish, which is fair, you know and sometimes I think they genuinely have questions and never have the questions been out of a place of disrespect. The questions I get asked most is about my hair. It's stuff like that and I'm always ready to answer that you know.
LL: Yeah and do you mind people asking you questions?
ZB: I don't mind just don't touch it! Just don't touch! But I don't mind, I mean I will talk about my hair for hours.
LL: Because it's a genuine curiosity rather than something -
ZB: Yes and I know when it's a genuine curiosity and I know when people are trying to be cheeky. So if you're trying to be cheeky I will probably give you a backhanded answer, you know. But if you're genuinely curious - oh I will sit, have coffee with you and talk for days (LL laughter) that's not a problem you know. And I think a lot of black Irish people are coming into the media sphere and I think that's something they need to take on, you do not need to validate yourself in anybody else’s eyes. You do not need to gain someone else’s respect.
LL: Exactly. And you know what you said there about people asking you questions about your hair, if it's genuine curiosity, I think that's something a lot of people, whether it's - a lot of people who are considered minorities, whether it's gender, sexuality, race etc, em feel like they have to represent an entire community and have all the answers and present really well all the time, and that can be really draining like you said. And I think one of the things people em find some peace with is distinguishing between genuine curiosity and like you said, cheekiness, or less good intentions and not answering those.
ZB: Yes during the Black Lives Matter movement I decided for myself I was like, I'm never going to answer the question 'does racism exist in Ireland?' because again, it starts off on the battleground where you have to defend.
LL: Exactly. But of course it exists in Ireland, like what kind of question - like if someone is asking that question, yeah I wouldn't be going into the answer because how do you not know! And, em, OK so you answered how you deal with negativity online. I love how you said that the block button is your best friend, because I think that so many people think that you can't block people, that you kind of have to tolerate something, and it's great to hear especially because you are a, superstar, is that what the kids call you? A TV superstar! To take the words of the children, em and now my words for you! That you know, it's so great that you even in your role are able to say, no I don't have to deal with that no matter what my role is. So kinda the last question I want to ask you is, em for anyone listening who is experiencing racism right now or on an ongoing basis, in Ireland, or wherever, what is something you'd like them to know?
ZB: Em. Something I'd like them to know for sure is like don't be afraid to report it. I think I stayed quiet because the default is to just accept it. And em, when I ended up saying it on Twitter, because in my head it was like, 'oh this is just what I go through' and when I tweeted it and people started to like it and retweet it and I almost like I want to take back that tweet and then there was articles about it, and I was like eee and for some reason I was scared to say this was happening when actually I shouldn’t ahve been because it wasn't my fault that people were saying things to me. And I think that's sometimes, I think even kids in schools are like if I bring it up then I'm just causing trouble, like I'm making a thing of it. I think what I would say is, make a thing of it because it's actually not right. You can't let someone else victimise you. Because you shouldn't be the victim of racism in the first place but unfortunately the world that we live in kind of makes people feel like racism is sometimes the default, not the default but -
LL: Part of the experience.
ZB: - racism just happens you know but it doesn't just happen and you shouldn't just sit back while someone says something to you or makes you feel a certain way. Whether it's direct or indirect, because I think that sometimes people are indirectly racist, and it's like, they're like 'oh but I'm just messing with you' like no, you can't like and I think people are so scared of being called racist, but I think it's so important to say to people ‘what you just said is wrong’. And if it's not being addressed or being taken on, I think if you are experiencing racism - call it out, because I think in Ireland at the moment we're seeing that people are also willing to stand by you. Which is so important. And I think that's so important, I think that's the fear people have if I say that something racist happens to me, what if I'm the person just causing up a stir, you know? So I suppose to wrap up my point really what I'm trying to say is that, if you feel like someone is saying something that is making you uncomfortable and their actions are directly or indirectly about your race, call it out because you'll be quite surprised the amount of people who will stand by you. And sometimes you'll also be surprised by the amount of people by the same person that it's being done to, because there's strength in numbers, you know. Because you might think you're the only person experiencing this but you could be surprised and see that it's a thing with said person, who may realise or not realise that their action is quite negative. So I think it's so so important to say that this is happening and it's not right.
LL: And when you say report it where do you mean to?
ZB: I'm not like, the report button on Twitter, because sometimes as we've learned that doesn't really go far. But it's like you know, I would even go as far as writing down what happened and keeping a log book and I know that sounds very very serious but I think it's very very important because I think letting things slide, there are things that are mistakes, but letting things slide builds up, because then that goes on to other people. So I think it's about if you don't feel comfortable - I'm thinking about kids now - saying to your teacher or principle, even just saying it to your parents, saying it to a friend -
LL: Making a record of it.
ZB: Yes, saying to a friend, saying it to your partner, so that someone else is there to share the burden because it's a thing to go through.
LL: And to be a witness of it too.
ZB: To be a witness essentially and that's what's important. I think you'd be very very surprised that you can accept things.
LL: And internalise them.
ZB: And internalise them. Whereas it takes other people to be like, that's not right. So definitely talk to people about what's happening and also make a log book of it - through your friends or just writing it down you know.
LL: And do you have anything you'd like to say for us to wrap up with?
ZB: Whether you're black, queer, whoever you are essentially. Whatever walk of life you are on it's a very important time to take care of yourself and readjust what's important to you. Because I think it's so easy to get swept up in everything, the everythingness of life, and the everythignness of being in a global healthcare crisis or potential recession or there's so much happening and I think it's so so so important to take care of yourself right now. And I mean, if it comes down to lighting a candle, or binge watching a few Netflix shows on a Sunday or ordering yourself a chippers I think the value of mental health and what everybody goes through is sometimes underestimated so at this time, whoever you whether you are living with family or living with roommates just take time to be by yourself and take care of yourself. Because even though we're all working from home or whatever capacity we're working in it's easy to forget that our feelings matter too. So just, take care of yourself.
Outro
The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line’s Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy and we would like to thank Zainab for speaking to us for this episode. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community and you can find out more information about our services and events on our website. Dublin Lesbian Line is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer whether it's two euro or 100 hundred euro it makes a big difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.
And welcome to women STAR Dublin lesbian line’s new podcast created to showcase the stories within the LGBTQAI community, specifically the stories of women STAR, which includes queer, nonbinary and transgender people. We want you to feel included whatever way you present yourself to the world so if you have a story you want to tell get in touch with us at www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Today’s guest is journalist and TV presenter, Zainab Boladale. We spoke to Zainab about representation of people of colour in the media, racism in Ireland, and how she deals with online harassment, but first she began by telling us what it was like to grow up queer in Co, Clare.
Zainab Boladale [ZB]: So growing up in Ennis I don't think I knew of anyone who was out as such. Or maybe I was just too young to know of anybody but I think the first time I realised that my sexuality was not straight, did not fit in this 'guy's only' category was around I think 13, and I think that definitely - the realisation was definitely influenced by Tumblr, and like by seeing queer characters on TV such as the L Word, or Sugar Rush.
Laura Louise [LL]: Oh yeah Sugar Rush
ZB: There was a bunch of stuff actually around that time that I was like ‘oh my god this is interesting.’
Both: laughter
LL: Sooo interesting.
ZB: Yah, and then I think I came out in a very non-official way at 13 in secondary school and I think that was definitely aided by the fact that there was another girl in that class that definitely had queer tendencies. And we used to say things like 'we're girlfriends' and all that kind of stuff together. It was like, yeah we were saying that for laughs but also it was like ‘ooooh are we or not? What's the story here?’ And actually, very interestingly, all my life I've just kind of managed to find the gay people whichever spaces I'm in! So there was that girl, and then there was another girl, who people used to make fun of her, say ‘oh my god she's a dyke’ and all that kind of stuff and she used to fight it a lot and I think actually she's out now. But I think she was so like, she was so bullied by it that she would never, she would never ever say back then. But definitely, all 3 of us used to hang out, all the time and it's so funny because sometimes I go back on my old, old Facebook, and on my Facebook I'm like holding one of them like this and the other one like this in both arms and it's like mmmmm clearly there's a lot of emotions.
LL: The signs were there.
ZB: Honestly the signs were there! So coming out, like I think people were just like ‘Zainab's a bit cookoo’. I'm quite an open person in general, I don't hide stuff about myself, so that was like 13, and em it's funny because at home I think I've had several coming outs. So when I was 13 I had the genius idea of creating a like collaborative YouTube LGBT page -
LL: that does sound genius!
ZB : - with people I met from Tumblr. [laughter] It's so funny coz, am I was around 15 and there was 5 of us, and one of them was from Canada, and the other one was from the UK and another one was from America and we all thought we were so cool! And we all uploaded our first videos about you know - so the idea was, everybody would, I was the 'B' at the time and then someone was the 'L' and someone was the 'G' and the 'T' and all that kinda stuff. So that was the idea, that we’d all represent, and we'd all have a day of the week to post stuff.
LL: That's really coordinated! That actually sounds brilliant!
ZB: Don't talk to strangers on the internet unless you have a great idea like that! [laughter] So we all uploaded our first video, and I was editing or whatever on the computer, this was at 15 and am, I think I had left it on the family computer and I think my mom would come in and be like 'what is this? what is bisexual?' because she didn't know what that was, and I was like...so then I deleted the channel!
Both: laughter
LL: altogether?
ZB: Altogether! And I was like guys I can't do this if you want to do this by yourself, you can. Because I just panicked! Because I was like, I don't know, the way she had said it -it was like I was doing something terrible you know.
LL: And did she see your video?
ZB: Yah! She watched the video! And she just didn't know what I was talking about you know. And then just the way she said it, I freaked out completely. Even though I was so excited about [it] and all that kinda stuff, for some reason even though I was uploading it to YouTube and stuff I thought no one would ever watch it, like people wouldn't watch it, even though that's the whole point of YouTube?
LL: I get you.
ZB: So for me the fact I stupidly left it on the family computer because I was editing on the family computer it just didn't connect to me at the time that yah maybe other people are using this computer yknow? [laughter] Maybe when you put stuff in documents –
LL: In an open shared space
ZB: - it will be opened by someone else! So anyway, I just freaked out, and deleted it all. And she was like ‘who are these people you're talking to I don't know these people, they don't look like they're from Ennis’, obviously. Because yknow, how many people from Ennis have bright blue hair? [laughter] When you go to rural Ireland blue hair is not a, it's not a - not that blue hair is not a thing in rural Ireland but you just...
LL: I know what you mean
ZB: The gays always have colourful hair, that's essentially what I mean. It's like a signpost for I-may-be-queer you know, [LL laughter] so she saw a bunch of people with colourful hair - and I had colourful hair at the time as well, I used to have these braids and on the packet they said Galaxy -
LL: Ooohhh
ZB: So it had hints of blue and red and purple... So I was also signposting myself basically.
LL: Going the full rainbow.
ZB: Absolutely, little hints. I thought I was so cool.
Both: Laughter
LL: Little hints. You actually do sound really cool though. Way cooler than I was so.
Both: Laughter
ZB: Not at all. So then I moved to an all-girls school at 16 and then there I had my first girlfriend and I was like hmm interesting. And I think that kind of cemented the fact that yes I am, I am queer and being in an all-girls school - I don't know if anybody else has had this experience but if you were accused of being gay in an all-girls school it was like the worst thing ever. It was the worst thing ever. So like we were never like ‘we're the signpost lesbians in the all-girls school’. And there were other girls who definitely were queer too.
LL: Of course
ZB: But we knew that some of them were, you know, doing stuff, but you'd never signpost it like this person is also [queer] you know.
LL: Mmhmm.
ZB: But like everybody knew but they didn't know if that makes sense. Nobody talked about it but it was obvious you know. We weren't changing our Facebook statuses but (LL laughter) we had like...you know what I mean!
LL: I definitely know what you mean.
ZB: There's only so many times you can go on after school dates that are just friends meeting up... you know... so it was quite evident. So me and that partner - well we didn't move together because we were just going to college - so like we ended up both in Dublin, so it was the end of that relationship, am, when I went to Pink Training. The Pink Training I had gone to before I had gone to the bisexual safe space and then it's so funny the second Pink Training I went to the lesbian safe space not because I thought I was a lesbian I was just curious right. I was like I'm just gonna go and see what they talk about because I've already been to the bisexual safe space. And then it was so funny because I was in a room full of women and they were all talking about being lesbians and whatever, all that kind of stuff, and I was like...it was like a lightbulb moment, I was like, wait a minute, I was like - I think that's more me! And it was like, my friend Hannah, she was so offended that I didn’t come to the bisexual safe space with her - she was like ‘you just don't wanna hang out with me!’ and I was like no I'm just curious what they're talking about and she's like ‘you know what they're going to talk about - lesbian stuff!’ I was like, I've been to the bisexual space before, so I know what it is yknow, I just want to hear what they have to say and then when I came out of that workshop the lesbian safe space, and I turned around to my friends and I goes, I think I might be a lesbian and they were like that actually makes a lot of sense. And I was like, ‘Why!!! What do you mean that makes a lot of sense?’ and they were like’ all your male crushes look like girls’ and I was just thinking back to everyone I was like...oh my days! All of my male crushes are very very very feminine! And then I realised, I have been living a lie! I thought I knew the whole thing already but no, it was so funny. So that was like my stages of being out essentially.
LL: And how were you when you realised you were a lesbian?
ZB: I was like I don't really know. First I set my Tinder to girls only and it made the world of difference! Because like the random messages you get from guys, like, having that filtered out was like a whole new clarity of a dating landscape. So that was like.. and then it's so funny because then coming out to my mom who is Nigerian and very traditional like if you're queer in Nigeria you just keep that to yourself. Marry a man and hope no one ever finds out. Obviously there are gay people existing in Nigeria but you just do the traditional straight marriage all that kind of stuff and whatever you want to do on the side no one wants to talk about it as long as you socially are straight, you know. And it's so funny because at the moment, the first I've ever seen is a lesbian YouTuber Amara The Lesbian, she's absolutely amazing and she's openly out and her and her partner live openly in Nigeria which is a country where it's criminalised at the moment. 14 years in jail just for being out and gay, but she was saying in her videos, which I watch like, religiously, she was saying if you have money to sustain yourself nobody will interfere with you. It's when you're in need of other people, like she runs an egg farm her partner works in tech I think or something like that and she does like photography and videography, so if you can sustain yourself where you're not depending on anybody including men, especially men, you're fine, you're left alone because people don't want to piss you off because people don't want to piss you off because you have enough money to defend yourself. Whereas if you unfortunately are reliant on someone else that's where the complications come for you as a queer person. Say if you're reliant on your parents, coz traditionally Nigerian women wouldn't move out of their family home so why would you be coming out if you're still reliant on your parents you know. Even if you're working, you don't move out until marriage to a man, so you're in a way, psychologically, you're reliant on people, so. And I was thinking that in reference to myself, and it's like you know, and because I'm out and in the Nigerian community I wouldn't be like ‘oh look at me’, yknow, because socially and mentally it's not acceptable. But I'm quite open and out if someone was to ask me I'd be like yeah but I don't go screaming it from the rooftops because I know there's existing cultural negativities attached to queer people, which unfortunately is very, very, very strong. Like queer people are demonised essentially. Which a lot of it comes from religion, I wouldn’t' even say it comes from culture I think it comes from religion because it’s like am, it's like you're not going to get into heaven, that’s against whatever religious book you follow, because Nigeria is split between Islam and Christianity so it's not even about what religion you follow, it's about it's not right, it's a sin, you know that's what it comes down to. So it's funny coz I feel like I've had a multitude of being out you know. And it's funny because I'll hear things from the Nigerian community like you know, I think Zainab is -
LL: here?
ZB: Here, yes I would hear things being like you know I think she's gay or whatever, whatever, I'm not here to prove anything to you, it's quite obvious you know I mean there was a rainbow flag on my page [social media] for about 2 years so I mean, I'm not hiding anything, like it's there. And it's so funny when people are like did you know Zainab was gay and I'm like I literally wear a rainbow bracelet and it's very interesting because it's not something I've ever been hiding or anything like that.
LL: But I guess people aren't expecting it because it's so culturally – yeah.
ZB: Yeah. For me like, I think for them, for me to be - I don't even know how to explain it, it's like they just don't expect it or believe it, or they think it's just a rumour. It's very interesting to see the narrative. For me, coming out is like, it's in different social groups - I came out with friends, then I had my new coming out in college, then the coming out to my mum, which is still a bit murky! I'm out to her but she's like...nah it's a phase.
LL: I was gonna ask you, if that's ok, how is your mom?
ZB: It's a phase, you know. And I love her to bits and all that kind of stuff -
LL: And is she ok with the phase or is she just patiently waiting..?
ZB: - it's more so let's not discuss the phase. When the phase is done…
LL: When you get a nice husband...
ZB: Absolutely, you know, she's like 'I have a husband, I have a guy who would make good husband material' and I'm like ‘interesting, can we move on what's for dinner?’
LL: Yes, I hope he will be a great husband for someone else.
ZB: Right? For someone else, girl please.
Both: Laughter.
ZB: So it's very interesting because for me I can understand like the struggles that queer people who aren't like who aren't accepted socially. Like my partner is Bulgarian and would also have similar stories of coming out in Eastern Europe, like in Bulgaria. And while it's like there are queer people actively living and open it's still not socially acceptable to be [gay]. And she'd be like ‘there's only one lesbian bar and I wouldn't even go there’. And I'm like ‘girl’, and she's like’ no you just wouldn't go there that's not where the good lesbians are! It's like the good lesbians are quiet about it’ and I'm like ‘girrrrl’.
LL: That really says so much.
ZB: It says a lot you know what I mean? So it's very interesting.
LL: Mmm. and was it difficult for you, trying to balance - growing up in Ireland, coming out, going to things like Pink Training, and then the Nigerian culture, that you grow up with or feel a part of - I don't know how you consider it?
ZB: Em I think, it's like, it was incredibly difficult because I felt like in some friend groups I felt like I could only be friends with people if I didn't bring that up. You know what I mean. And I love my culture, I love being Nigerian, I absolutely love it and I would never give it up you know.
LL: Yeah.
ZB: But I felt like in my Nigerian circles that was not to be brought up at all. And even now there's some friends where it's only now that I think to some friends I'd bring it up, but I could feel like there's a kind of quietens in the room then they're like ‘so anyway! We're talking about this guy crush I have’...yknow like, and I'm like OK clearly my conversation starter is not what we're talking about.
LL: OK that's still not where we're going!
ZB: And it's interesting because then I felt like, back when I was in college, I felt like it was only within my Irish friend group that I could be - that side, that I could talk about that side, that I could talk about dating, things that young people are talking about, you know. So it just felt like there was an occasional mismatch. But it's only in recent times that I've started to meet other black Nigerians who are like, rainbow flags and all out there, you know what I mean. And it's funny that change has only happened in the last 3 years for me. So it's mad that in the last 3 years those people - they were there but they were also thinking, I can't talk about this, I can only talk about this in my Irish friend groups.
LL: And from, even I can see the massive increase in visibility but I know people have said before to me, that they, em, because it's so ingrained in people that there's no such thing as gay in Nigeria they felt 'well I'm the only one then'.
ZB: I genuinely, I genuinely thought that I was the only out person in Ireland!
LL: Well I can understand why you'd feel like that.
ZB: I thought the out people are probably married.
LL: Yes, or in London.
ZB: Right or in London! I thought where are all these cool gay people in the States or in London, that are also with African roots. The fact that UK Black Pride has been going for 15 years is that their official name? and I was like what!
LL: Wow, it's interesting. In comparison to here where -
ZB: Yeah a year!
LL: Wow and what do you think about Black Pride being here?
ZB: I think it is so needed. Because like I mean it was only recently, I don't know if it was circulating in the Irish community, but in the Irish Nigerian community there was a young boy whose mother was very, very verbally abusive towards him and we came to find out later it's because he is still trying to figure out his sexuality. So at first people just thought she was just a very abusive mother and like, I don't know I think it was my sister who said it to me the reason his mother was fighting him constantly in the house, he said the reason my mother and my brother and dad hates me. And I was like that's a very strange thing to say and my sister told me a few weeks later that's coz he's not sure of his sexuality, he's not sure where he stands. And I was saying to my sister I was like, it's actually really, really good that we have at least something like Black Pride Ireland to show that you are not alone there are probably others experiencing what you are experiencing right now. And I think that's something people forget, it's different when you are - and I know everybody has struggles coming out - but when you are from a culture, regardless of what country you live in, when you're from a culture that doesn't acknowledge LGBT people it's doubly harder because you're like my other gay friend gets to have this experience whereas this is my experience at home. And I know you can still be white Irish and get kicked out of your home for being gay but you're twice as likely, if not an umpteenth amount of times (as likely) to have struggles as home because of that. And it's really heart-breaking for me, because it's like I know I have experienced that in the past in a different capacity and it's heart-breaking that that still happens other people, because I know psychologically it had a lot of impact on me. And it's like, it breaks my heart to see that still being the case. And I know it's hard to like, just be like oh I wish everybody was happy the under the rainbow, all that kind of stuff, but it's just very, very hard.
LL: And you're right I agree, so that people can know about struggles other people are having but also a sign of hope I think as well. Like when we were talking in preparation for this and you mentioned you know that em it's important to see the positive things -that you can live and be happy and if you choose to to get married, that you can have friends and be out, that it's not only em that you don't have to keep it in all the time, but also to acknowledge the very, very real and probably ongoing then difficulties of coming out and being out. And I guess sometimes it's about building the resilience in people, that you will face this but there is a Black Pride community and you'll have a community ready to welcome you, instead of you're fighting this on your own.
ZB: Yeah. Yeah and I think it's so important because I know like and I'm not even speaking about the Nigerian community, I know there was when Black Pride Ireland was set up there was a lot of backlash against them like ‘why do you need this section aren't we all under the same rainbow?’ and all that kind of stuff. But like it's hard for someone who has never experienced what black queer people have experienced, to say this is not necessary you know, they can't say that because you don't know the underlying reasons why it's needed even if it's like they don't do anything at all - even existing is enough for some people, you know what I mean. And that's how I think about it, it's not about having 3 different Prides or parades it's about, just existing it gives someone a mental home. I think that's so important.
LL: Yes! Yeah. I think the more safe spaces we have for people the better. I don't see how anyone else having a safe space will threaten me I really, I don't get that. We've had trans guests on the podcasts and they get a lot of hate sometimes, not always, and then people saying yknow not having trans spaces and trans women but yknow it's ok for somebody to have their own space and also then be part of the wider community. It's like there's bi spaces, there's trans spaces, there can be black queer spaces, all those things are great - anything that increases safety and security for our people, our family, is a positive thing yknow.
ZB: Yes it's just like in the trans community there are experiences that are unique to trans people it's the same way in the black queer community there are experiences that are unique to black queer people and that's regardless of whether you're Nigerian, Angolan, Ethiopian, it's like so many unfortunately African countries they do criminalise homosexuality and its important that even If you are accepted in your family you still feel that you know. Because when I went to Nigeria 2 years ago I was like I better take off that rainbow flag just in case and I was with my mom it wasn't like anyone was going to grab me off the street but it was that mental fear. I need to make sure there's nothing about me That says that ‘I am this’ just to be safe because you already know that it's not acceptable.
LL: Taking off the signposts those signifiers
ZB: Exactly.
LL: Oh yeah what you said about communities…. I think it is especially important now because there are so many people growing up here who would have parents who come from countries who are still deeply embedded in those norms and expectations, and then a lot of the first generations of people who have grown up here in that mismatch or that kind of duality of growing up Irish and also of growing up Nigerian or like you said other countries that criminalise our identities anyway and trying to figure all that out. I think it's particularly important - it'll always be important but especially now, when there's so much still to be figured out. And so much in Ireland to still be figured out about I don't know, cultures and acceptance and creating spaces for people and opening dialogues as well. I think that visibility is more important than ever and not only for people who personally experience it, people who don't understand that there needs to be spaces but also for people who might have those prejudices to start seeing and getting some visibility and start normalising because if you never see something then it's easier to keep on 'oh this is wrong, this is bad' whereas when it's kind of all around you and it's normalised sometimes it can help to bring people along. Like I know a lot of people who have grown up here with parents that are from countries where it's illegal to be gay and the parents are sure it's like 'you got this from Ireland, it's a Western thing' like.
ZB: Do you know what I have heard that before. It's like, exactly that - 'don't take those traits, this is an EU thing'
LL: Yeah - oh EU, nice!
ZB It's interesting I didn't realise the EU had a strong -
LL: Gay agenda?
ZB: And this is not just me, I have a friend who is Polish who is like, yknow who was saying to me, because you know what's happening in Poland, we were having that discussion and she was saying that her family were like - and she's gay herself - and her family were saying 'we're not talking about your kind of gay, we're talking about that kind of gay, the Polish kind of gay, it's wrong'. Because I think she was born here and then she was like how is my type of gay different to the Polish type of gay you know, because they again see queerness in a different light because it's in Poland, but if it's in Ireland, that's the OK gay.
LL: That's part of who they are, these kids etc.
ZB: So it's very interesting that's why typical Nigerians genuinely believe that gay people don't exist or they're influenced by Western culture. And it's funny because one of our influencers, our big influencers, is a person called Bobrisky and they're an openly trans woman - well they call themselves Uncle and Aunty so I don't know what their pronouns are - they're an openly trans person, and they are loaded. And they have 2 million followers I think so, but because they are loaded and can afford anything like nobody questions them. And it's like, Nigerian police stopped their birthday party because they were like you can't show your gayness, but they're queerly living quite large and open and people are always commenting in the section like ‘show us x, y, z,’ you know but it's like there's 2 million Nigerians following this person, so do you hate gay people or not?
LL: Yes .And so, OK you mentioned this already that you've seen in the last kinda 3 years you've seen more Nigerian queer people, so how do you feel about black queer representation in Ireland at the moment, and even versus to how you came out?
ZB: Well first of all it's so so so so so so important. Because I mean when I was growing up, I'm sure there was but there was none that I knew of, and even going through stuff like Pink Training I think I was the only black person there, I think so. And it's so interesting one of my memories, and I didn’t realise this was something I did, so when I was in DCU I took part in the DCU Drag Race and there was another competitor Viola Gavis –
LL: Great name!
ZB: - and they said to me recently and this absolutely shook me and I'm not trying to make myself sound big or anything like that, but it was just, when they said this I was like oh my God, they said that I was the first person to give them make up to do drag. And I was like ‘What? Wait that happened?’ and they were like ‘yeah, you gave me make up - black make up because everyone else was white - to do my drag face’ and I was like that's mad, and it's like, essentially the point I'm trying to make there is like having queer black people who are open makes you feel comfortable to go to them, to say this is what I'm going through, how have you moved past this? How have you done this? And it's funny because I have a friend, now a friend, when I was working in a HR company, and she was so cool and she was the HR manager and I overheard her say - she's black by the way - and I overheard her saying 'oh I'm getting married to my fiancé soon' and then I heard like 'she' and I was like oooh [gasp] I was like oh my God she's getting married and she's black and to a woman!’ I was like you know, me typing away but I'm also like my ear leaning over and she's showing the ring and stuff like that and I'm eeeeee [excited sound]. And it's so funny because then I went onto her Instagram and I stalked the hell out of her. And I was like 'and her partner’s Irish!' and 'here's a picture with her and her partner and her parents!' and I was like 'oh my God it's possible!'. And it's so funny because several years later we've become friends now and I told her, I used to be like 'she's so cool coz she's a queer person who's married and she has the entire fantasy and her parents were at her wedding, you know and they go out for family brunches.' I was like 'you are living the dream.' (Both: laughter) And then she was explaining to me you know it wasn't always that easy, she too had that cultural fight, you know, that clash of this is who I am versus this is who you want me to be. And she was saying to me her fiancé is also very much like, she's not having anyone disrespect them
And her fiancé is a kind of take no nonsense kind of person, which she said helped her a lot in certifying this is the person I want to marry, you're either on board or you're off board, it's happening regardless. And it was like hearing her story it was like oh my God that's how I feel about things, like that's how I feel about sexuality, who I am, like I will never not be who I am, because someone else has a problem with it and that comes down to anybody regardless of how close you are to me. And it was like, I know that's easy for me to say, because I, I would consider myself a confident person but not everybody has confidence, not everybody has that self-assurance, and that I demand respect, not because I, I just need respect because I am a human being, and just because I choose to be a certain way and not choose but, you know, just because I am a certain way doesn't mean I should be looked down on you know. And I think that's so important, and I think young queer people, especially young black queer people, like need to be encouraged to feel that way about themselves because so often you're getting told 'you're not this, you're not that, you're not enough. You can't, you shouldn't, you won't' you know, and it's like even like some queer black people, I was listening to something recently and someone said that she came out as gay as well, I mean you can't hide black you but can hide gay, you know, she said she thought that if she came out as gay as well her company they would just think she was trying to tick all the boxes, and that she was just like, and I don't even know how she said it but I was like, girl! I get where you're coming from. Because she felt like yeah I can't hide being black like I'm a black woman in this tech company but I can control how people view me as a gay person, you know. And I was like that's very interesting, she feels forced that she has to hide that so she's not too big, she's not too present, she's not too - you know, she's very interesting.
LL: Don't take up too much space
ZB: Exactly.
LL: Wow. And actually you do exude a confidence, it's very eh, amazing to be around. It makes me sit up straighter. (ZB laughs) No it's fantastic. Where did you get that? How did you develop that?
ZB: Ammm. Jees Louise.
Both: Laughter
LL: Too big a question?
ZB: Am. I don't even know how to explain it, I think it definitely comes from being like, metaphorically, being beaten down so much. And I think that's where it comes from, because I'm not like an extroverted person or I'm not like, you know, I've never had so many friends or been so cool or anything like that and like it's so funny growing up most of my friends were in the internet and I know that is so sad, but em, most of my friends I made from Tumblr, or people I met on YouTube, which is so like, don't talk to strangers! but I did!
LL: That's such a teenage queer thing to do though isn't it?
ZB: I know I know (laughter) don't talk to strangers - but I totally did!! And I think like, a lot of people around me, I genuinely, genuinely, and I know people say this, I did not fit in. So I fit in with people that I met online, and I think because the people around me I felt like they were constantly beating me up, metaphorically, that I feel like I stuck onto people who were older and doing things that I wanted to do and exuded the personalities that I wanted, you know, and in some ways that kind of made me feel like, you know what, you can do whatever you want, you need to just put your shoulders up and stand straight and look at people in a way that like, sorry I'm rambling, but something I always say and I say it to myself, you know, people are either in your life for a season or a reason. And I also say, don't ask for things, demand. Demand things because you deserve those things you know and it's like I have those little slogans I say to myself, like repetitive mantras, and I always say like what are you grateful for today Zainab? Or waking up and making sure there is a highlight to my day, even if it's going to get bubble tea which I love. And I give myself these things because I think I felt very lonely for so long, and I felt very alone in my own world, that I kind of I think maybe, in a deluded way, built my own fortress so I felt that you know...yeah.
LL: That's beautiful thank you so much.
ZB: I'm rambling now
LL: You're not rambling! I'm just short of clapping and clicking my fingers like yes!
Both: Laughter.
LL: Thank you so much, because it is something when you meet somebody that is - especially women, young women, you know that so often young women are just told, like you said about your friend be quiet, stay in your box don't take up too much space. So sometimes when you meet somebody young and confident it's like how do I get to that! What is it? What's the magic thing!
ZB: Exactly even like Amara, the lady, the Nigerian lady on YouTube, her page is actually Amara the Lesbian, that's actually her page.
LL: I'm gonna look her up, that's a place I wanna be!
ZB: She's amazing, she's amazing. And even watching her, because she exudes the kind of confidence that I want you know, it's like to boldy live in a country, she says 'I love Nigeria, I want this, this is my home' and she's not going to stand down for anybody, even if it's illegal technically, you know. And it's like her talking about her coming out, her family not really talking to her, you know, she's just - she exudes the kind of confidence, if you can boldly live in a country that criminalises your sexuality, and do it online as well, that's the confidence I'm tryna get to you know.
LL: Wow yes. So it sounds like having people, like role models -
ZB: virtual role models!
LL: Well I guess as well there wasn't visibility for you growing up so you have to find them, find them online. Which I think it's why, I'm so grateful that you're here today because I picture you being a role model to people that are listening, and people that are far older than you as well, that are here in Ireland, not out and wishing you know ‘how do I get to that point?’ And also, yeah on why visibility is so important, we need things to aspire to, I think especially before coming out, and when you're figuring yourself out I think role models and visibility really help self-acceptance and knowing it's ok. And we need to kind of see people, who look like us, who mimic our values, or how we want to be how we want to come across, that's really important to help us to, us to…
ZB: Climb.
LL: Climb yeah.
ZB: It's very important it's so important.
LL: So you articulated that perfectly. Ok I'm not sure how to phrase this question because, or if I’m saying this properly because, what ways… OK there's been so much movement around the Black Lives Matter movement which is fantastic, devastating. Ireland is I think a complex country when it comes to race and racism but I do see more interest from people to educate themselves, ourselves, em I’m white. So what ways can, would you recommend from your personal experience that people in Ireland can educate ourselves about the black lives matter movement?
ZB: I think at the moment as terrible as the reasons for the Black Lives Matter movement reawakening, all the reasons for it reawakening as traumatic and terrible as it is, I think there has been a knock on effect of positive outcomes from it. And by that I mean there’s so many talented black young people in Ireland that are finally getting the recognition they deserve and that goes down to musicians, artists, creators, business owners. Even recently I've started following the Irish Black Owned page it's all about promoting Black businesses hair, beauty, you know skincare and everything like that and I think it's definitely shown what is an Ireland. I think a lot of people didn't realise this because again you can only know what within your own bubble. And I think even just by, and I know people laugh at social media stuff, but I think even just by following these pages because there is Black and Irish which is an Instagram page that does stories about black people in Ireland and educates, there’s Irish Black Owned and even through that you can follow some of the businesses and it's like following those pages and starting to broaden your own bubble, and just following, you know black people in Ireland, because you'd be very surprised at what's happening in black communities in Ireland – it might be very different to what's happening in Irish communities in Ireland. Like the conversations may be the same, but the viewpoints sometimes aren't. And even sometimes I'd be with my black friends, and I'd be like, and they'd tell me something and I'd be like oh I didn't know about that and they'd be like yeah because nobody is covering these things, or talking about these things except for black Irish people. And then I realised oh jees like I am living in two different worlds sometimes and I would love to see a future where all of that starts to merge. And I can see it with my younger sister because she was born here and it's so funny because like I'd have more of an Irish accent than my younger sister but that's because she just kind of hangs out with everybody, do you know where I'm coming from like, her friend group is just so so mixed which is great so I can see, her upcoming friend group they don't really - I think it's also influenced by Disney if I'm honest, because the Disney channel and their accents are all American and bish bash bosh. (Both: laughter) But anyway that's neither here nor there. (Both: laughter). I would just love to see a future where it's not the black Irish community or white Irish community, it's just the Irish community you know. And I think a lot of publications have done a great job of starting to invite black writers, black journalists and that's important. Because sometimes I think the intention can be great but the execution sometimes not - and I'm not saying just hire black people to write black stories, like I have several interests, I like hair, I like make up, you know I don't just want to be the black person who talks about black things you know my interests are wide and they range.
LL: But at the same time should there be white people writing black stories and you know…
ZB: I mean I would prefer if I wrote about braids you know, because I know about braids you know what I mean?
LL: Yes I should not be writing about braids!
ZB: You know what I mean! But it's like I think the conversations that we’re having are really really important now but I'd hope to see that those conversations grow to things about, everything in general, but it just means forefronting black Irish people in the things we do and I know that black people in Ireland are a minority but that doesn't mean we need to treat black people as a minority. I mean if I can get on the bus and see a few black people that means we are here enough to be included in industries, you know healthcare, creative - music, cinema, all that kind of stuff you know. It's important, it's so so so important and I think that's one of the biggest things people have realised through the Black Lives Matter movement is that things that are important to us, are important to us because we can relate to some of the experiences of being, of being, I don't want to say racially profiled because I think that's a unique experience to, not unique but that's an experience that's totally different in America, but I think we can relate to the experience of having racist actions or words thrown at us. And that's why I think that month was so so so heavy, and it was so - because when you wake up and you see that black people's existence and black people's rights are being discoursed, and you're like well I'm just going to go back to sleep, because the world hates me. You know because that's the message it sends, so it's important that we counteract those messages and say you know we will stand up against racist words in this country, you are safe in this country, regardless of where you are from, human decency and respect is deserved by everyone. I think it's really really really really really amazing that that is what we're seeing now. When I see white Irish people, being the first people to say 'what you said is racist' that brings me joy. Because it's like, someone like me shouldn't have to be like, this is racist. you know. I can, but I want to see that everyone is going to call out racism when they see it.
LL: And just on to something about protecting your mental health, you've already said some really great things about how you kind of built yourself up and built that confidence that's come from being metaphorically beat down all the time, and when it comes to racism and people in Ireland you get actions and words thrown at you - I think that's a very eloquent way of describing it - how have you built up ways to protect yourself from those experiences?
ZB: First of all, I kind of made the decision like I'm not going to argue with anyone online, like that's my cut off space. You can say anything you want - well I hope you don't - but you know the block button is my best friend. Because it's like I don't have to listen to things that are about me. Like if you have feedback and criticism - fair. But if it's personal than that is not right because you do not know me so you can't make a fair conclusion of what you think of me. Especially if it comes from a place of abuse, and a place of hatred, and a place of xenophobia, and a place of racism. And, am, I think, it's so interesting because when I started journalism, am I was the only black girl in my course. I mean I kind of expected that that would be the case, but it kind of solidified when I went into media, and then going events and being like 'yep just the only black girl here too'. Am, and thankfully at the time, all my friends in college were gay so it's, like, you know, I felt like you know we're all the merry marching people of...[laughter] So I was used to being part of a group of people who were different in different ways, so then it was like it was fine you know mentally it was fine. But then I think when I started to do proper work within the journalistic space and people would take my stuff and not even read the contents of the article but just put stuff about me. And I'm like just because you see my little tiny picture there you're gonna make a decision about me and not what I'm writing about. If you said, I don't like the way she wrote that sentence I'd be like cool but you saying like ‘N word’ this or you, just whatever whatever, just felt really like toxic and I remember back then, this is not with the company I'm with now, this was in the past, I just kind of - I showed it to my mom, and then she was like ‘oh right whatever whatever’ and then I put it up on Facebook and then you know people went and reported the page and whatever and then the cycle kept continuing and continuing, whatever I would do it would always get put on a forum or have comments underneath it yada yada yada and it was like, this feels kind of personal now. And then it kind of died down, oh it died down because I had stopped writing like news-news and I was writing opinion pieces which is lighter you know, and I think there's more news readers in general so I think that's why it kind of got railroaded and then when I started to work on television it's like you can see me now so you can have more of an opinion of me, and stuff was taken and bish bash bosh-ed together into a YouTube page that was dedicated to just hating black Irish people.
LL: That's disgusting.
ZB: That was literally the entire page. And there would be comments or whatever, and it's like we're all deeply twisted because we read negative things even though we know, like I knew, based on the title that it was going to be negative comments but still I read the negative comments you know and I showed my partner and I was like look yada yada yada and she was like ‘oh that's terrible’ and she was thinking about going to comment you know ‘how dare you’ and I was like it actually is not necessary you don’t need to argue with these people. And it was a repetitive cycle, and I was like, and I had complained about it and it was taken down, and then it kept going back up and I was like I'm not going to give this energy and I think whenever I'd see the stuff - and I saw stuff about my physical features I'd be like well I know I'm not ugly so that's clearly a lie, but then it was more stuff like ‘her voice is so grating, she can't even speak English properly.’ Like I knew that was also a lie but it was like...is my voice grating?
LL: Aw.
ZB: And because I used to talk really really really fast I was like, can I not speak English properly? Even though I've been speaking English my entire life! But I think it was just, it was more, I speak other languages so I was like is that what it is? Is that coming into things?
LL: It was closer to something you could worry about yourself.
ZB: Exactly, exactly. So I think psychologically even though I didn't realise at the time, it was at the very very back of my mind, I feel like I have little boxes in my head, so I put it in one of those boxes in my head. But I think psychologically the underlying tone was like you know there are people who don't like seeing you. Not because you of what you're doing, you know, they just don't like seeing you. Or you know being accused of being a diversity hire being accused of trying to have an agenda, I don’t know whatever they thought I had, and I think all of that played in the back of my mind to the point where I probably started to think a little bit that, am I - am I actually here because of my talent? Even though I knew, even though I knew I was hired based on what I did in the audition, not based on anything else. but you know the way, you just, you second guess yourself.
LL: Absolutely, it undermines you.
ZB: Yeah. Am and, I think just, and I don't know where any of this came from but I think it just came to a point where I was like, OK what can I do to safeguard my mental health? Because I have so much to worry about and this can’t be [part] of it. And if I'm gonna be here and do my job, and do what I chose to do, I can't let people who are online discredit me or make me feel less than or make me feel insecure, because that shows. So things I would do is like if there was a page I would instantly block it and I would always go to a positive thing I enjoy watching, maybe it's a YouTuber maybe it's like a really nice film I love sci-fi Doctor Who, so I used positive reinforcements, or lighting a candle. I don't know what it is about lighting candles, but lighting a candle just instantly makes me feel better. Or like getting bubble tea. I would just try to do things like - OK that's not true, and we’re not going to give that energy so here's what we can do. And I think sometimes, I see online, and it makes me really sad, people get trapped into debates about themselves. And I was like if I start to do that than that's going to chip away at me slowly. And it's like I will not fight with anybody about what they think of me because I know what I think of me and that is what matters the most to me and that is what matters the most to how I perform and what I bring. And it's like, I think something that really motivated me is like whenever I used to go into classrooms because you know I was on the children’s news programme, and the girls would be like staring at me with the eyes, you know how little kids stare at you with their eyes, like ‘oooooh I like your braids’ (Both: laughter) you know like the kids of colour there would be like ‘oh my mom says this about you and my mom says that she thinks you’re really cool’ or things like that or ‘I saw the article about you’, and I was like actually this is whose opinions matter! Not some random people behind their screens. These kids! With their eyes and their little tiny voices! Or they'd ask me question, they're like, they'd say things like ‘you look different’, and I'm like ‘different good or different bad?’ and they're like, ‘just different.’
Both: Laughter.
LL: They’re neutral.
ZB: And I'm like that's a compliment I think! And I'm like those are the opinions that mater, and it's like they can see me coming to their classroom in their eyes, and I'm not saying this for myself, in their eyes as a TV star, that's pretty cool. And it's like if someone had come into my classroom and like they had braids like me I'd be like ‘oh my God! Who are you?’ You know so I think that's why I had a mental resistance I was like OK this job is not about me or some guy on the internet or some person on the internet it's genuinely about the people I meet every day and by going into people’s homes which is what I do now I'm not going into schools. I'm going into people's homes and into people's communities and they see me and they ask their questions, you know x, y, z and everyone is usually very nice in general when people meet me. And people are genuinely curious I think people sometimes are genuinely curious because their bubble sometimes, not sometimes, but the majority of people’s bubbles who are of a certain age are white and Irish, which is fair, you know and sometimes I think they genuinely have questions and never have the questions been out of a place of disrespect. The questions I get asked most is about my hair. It's stuff like that and I'm always ready to answer that you know.
LL: Yeah and do you mind people asking you questions?
ZB: I don't mind just don't touch it! Just don't touch! But I don't mind, I mean I will talk about my hair for hours.
LL: Because it's a genuine curiosity rather than something -
ZB: Yes and I know when it's a genuine curiosity and I know when people are trying to be cheeky. So if you're trying to be cheeky I will probably give you a backhanded answer, you know. But if you're genuinely curious - oh I will sit, have coffee with you and talk for days (LL laughter) that's not a problem you know. And I think a lot of black Irish people are coming into the media sphere and I think that's something they need to take on, you do not need to validate yourself in anybody else’s eyes. You do not need to gain someone else’s respect.
LL: Exactly. And you know what you said there about people asking you questions about your hair, if it's genuine curiosity, I think that's something a lot of people, whether it's - a lot of people who are considered minorities, whether it's gender, sexuality, race etc, em feel like they have to represent an entire community and have all the answers and present really well all the time, and that can be really draining like you said. And I think one of the things people em find some peace with is distinguishing between genuine curiosity and like you said, cheekiness, or less good intentions and not answering those.
ZB: Yes during the Black Lives Matter movement I decided for myself I was like, I'm never going to answer the question 'does racism exist in Ireland?' because again, it starts off on the battleground where you have to defend.
LL: Exactly. But of course it exists in Ireland, like what kind of question - like if someone is asking that question, yeah I wouldn't be going into the answer because how do you not know! And, em, OK so you answered how you deal with negativity online. I love how you said that the block button is your best friend, because I think that so many people think that you can't block people, that you kind of have to tolerate something, and it's great to hear especially because you are a, superstar, is that what the kids call you? A TV superstar! To take the words of the children, em and now my words for you! That you know, it's so great that you even in your role are able to say, no I don't have to deal with that no matter what my role is. So kinda the last question I want to ask you is, em for anyone listening who is experiencing racism right now or on an ongoing basis, in Ireland, or wherever, what is something you'd like them to know?
ZB: Em. Something I'd like them to know for sure is like don't be afraid to report it. I think I stayed quiet because the default is to just accept it. And em, when I ended up saying it on Twitter, because in my head it was like, 'oh this is just what I go through' and when I tweeted it and people started to like it and retweet it and I almost like I want to take back that tweet and then there was articles about it, and I was like eee and for some reason I was scared to say this was happening when actually I shouldn’t ahve been because it wasn't my fault that people were saying things to me. And I think that's sometimes, I think even kids in schools are like if I bring it up then I'm just causing trouble, like I'm making a thing of it. I think what I would say is, make a thing of it because it's actually not right. You can't let someone else victimise you. Because you shouldn't be the victim of racism in the first place but unfortunately the world that we live in kind of makes people feel like racism is sometimes the default, not the default but -
LL: Part of the experience.
ZB: - racism just happens you know but it doesn't just happen and you shouldn't just sit back while someone says something to you or makes you feel a certain way. Whether it's direct or indirect, because I think that sometimes people are indirectly racist, and it's like, they're like 'oh but I'm just messing with you' like no, you can't like and I think people are so scared of being called racist, but I think it's so important to say to people ‘what you just said is wrong’. And if it's not being addressed or being taken on, I think if you are experiencing racism - call it out, because I think in Ireland at the moment we're seeing that people are also willing to stand by you. Which is so important. And I think that's so important, I think that's the fear people have if I say that something racist happens to me, what if I'm the person just causing up a stir, you know? So I suppose to wrap up my point really what I'm trying to say is that, if you feel like someone is saying something that is making you uncomfortable and their actions are directly or indirectly about your race, call it out because you'll be quite surprised the amount of people who will stand by you. And sometimes you'll also be surprised by the amount of people by the same person that it's being done to, because there's strength in numbers, you know. Because you might think you're the only person experiencing this but you could be surprised and see that it's a thing with said person, who may realise or not realise that their action is quite negative. So I think it's so so important to say that this is happening and it's not right.
LL: And when you say report it where do you mean to?
ZB: I'm not like, the report button on Twitter, because sometimes as we've learned that doesn't really go far. But it's like you know, I would even go as far as writing down what happened and keeping a log book and I know that sounds very very serious but I think it's very very important because I think letting things slide, there are things that are mistakes, but letting things slide builds up, because then that goes on to other people. So I think it's about if you don't feel comfortable - I'm thinking about kids now - saying to your teacher or principle, even just saying it to your parents, saying it to a friend -
LL: Making a record of it.
ZB: Yes, saying to a friend, saying it to your partner, so that someone else is there to share the burden because it's a thing to go through.
LL: And to be a witness of it too.
ZB: To be a witness essentially and that's what's important. I think you'd be very very surprised that you can accept things.
LL: And internalise them.
ZB: And internalise them. Whereas it takes other people to be like, that's not right. So definitely talk to people about what's happening and also make a log book of it - through your friends or just writing it down you know.
LL: And do you have anything you'd like to say for us to wrap up with?
ZB: Whether you're black, queer, whoever you are essentially. Whatever walk of life you are on it's a very important time to take care of yourself and readjust what's important to you. Because I think it's so easy to get swept up in everything, the everythingness of life, and the everythignness of being in a global healthcare crisis or potential recession or there's so much happening and I think it's so so so important to take care of yourself right now. And I mean, if it comes down to lighting a candle, or binge watching a few Netflix shows on a Sunday or ordering yourself a chippers I think the value of mental health and what everybody goes through is sometimes underestimated so at this time, whoever you whether you are living with family or living with roommates just take time to be by yourself and take care of yourself. Because even though we're all working from home or whatever capacity we're working in it's easy to forget that our feelings matter too. So just, take care of yourself.
Outro
The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line’s Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy and we would like to thank Zainab for speaking to us for this episode. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community and you can find out more information about our services and events on our website. Dublin Lesbian Line is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer whether it's two euro or 100 hundred euro it makes a big difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.