Rebecca Harold and Jennifer McGee, founders of Inclusion, a social group for transgender people in Ireland, spoke to Laura Louise about challenges they have faced since they began transitioning, how they have overcome these challenges, and why they have set up Inclusion.
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You can listen on Spotify, iTunes, Acast, and Soundcloud and here are the links:
Acast: https://bit.ly/WomenSTARep4
Spotify: https://bit.ly/WomenStarep4spotify
Soundcloud: https://bit.ly/WomenSTARep4soundcloud
iTunes: https://bit.ly/WomenSTARep4iTunes
Listen here now:
Episode 4 Transcription
Intro: And welcome to women STAR Dublin lesbian line’s new podcast created to showcase the stories within the LGBTQAI community, specifically the stories of women STAR, which includes queer, nonbinary and transgender people. We want you to feel included whatever way you present yourself to the world so if you have a story you want to tell get in touch with us at www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Today’s guests however are Rebecca Harold and Jennifer McGee founders of Inclusion a social group for transgender people in Ireland, and they spoke to Laura Louise about the challenges they face since they began transitioning, how they overcame these challenges and why they set up Inclusion.
We began by asking them to introduce themselves.
Jennifer McGee (JMG): Hello yeah my name is Jennifer McGee and I’m from Galway. I’ve lived in Galway for about twelve years, I’m originally from Guidor in County Donegal, which is in the countryside, it’s a lovely part of the world – when it’s not raining. Very much like Galway really. And I did live in Dublin as well, I lived in Dublin for probably ten years and then moved to Galway in 2008. And I am currently working in the Regional Hospital in Galway. So yeah I think that my introduction.
Laura Louise Condell (LL): Great thanks Jennifer.
Becky Harold (BH): Thank you I’m Becky Harold, I’m from Kilkenny and like most places in rural Ireland there’s nothing around for me. At the moment I’m studying Beauty Therapy, which has been great, everyone has been so supportive, including the teachers, principal have been so supportive of me on my journey and really enjoying it. And I go swimming most days as well. I recently started T blockers so really have been alright on them. I feel more relaxed and finally on my journey. So I’ll pass you back to Jennifer.
LL: And sorry before we go back to Jennifer, for those who don’t know – what are T Blockers?
BH: T Blockers, they block the male, god I can’t even pronounce the word, tes…tes…
LL: Testosterone.
BH: (laughing) Testosterone.
LL: You’re so done with it you can’t even say it.
BH: Basically they stop all male functions from happening. Yeah I’m still at the stage where I’m learning things myself. For three days before getting them I was more nervous about getting them, I was more thinking I was going to wake up and see miracles.
LL: Yeah (laughing).
BH: And wondering is this normal, what’s happened? Like I know lately I felt a bit of weight gain slightly.
LL: OK
BH: And I was told that’s normal that when you start with the oestrogen things will start redistributing the fat. The hopefully I’ll have bosoms by September.
LL: Getting your curves. And Jennifer was there something you felt you wanted to say?
JMG: I was just going to say, I was probably going to mention my hobbies. I suppose I started my own transition about five and a half years ago. I was starting from zero again, I had lost a lot of family, a lot of friends. There wasn’t a lot of support networks at the time. I didn’t know how to go about you know, I suppose resocialising myself, if that’s the right term for it but so now five years later I have a vast amount of interests. I do hot yoga two times a week, I’m part of a book club, I’m part of a social meet up group on a Sunday which is basically coffee and a chat. I’m in Galway Toastmasters for anyone who doesn’t know that that’s to do with self-improvement, speaking in public and stuff like that.
But it has been quite a tough climb back, yeah you know back out of the social doldrums. It’s like being catapulted out of a moving aeroplane. That’s the best way to describe it. Without getting too far into it – the social fallout can be massive.
LL: Of coming out?
JMG: Well when starting to transition, certainly your own ideas about it and how it’s going to go start to disappear. It is exciting but there were lots of tough days, you know but it makes you resilient, you know, in the long run.
LL: Thanks Jennifer. God you’re both so active you put me to shame. So before we get into our topics that we’re going to talk about today – you are so good to travel on a Sunday afternoon and miss your meet up, all the way from Galway, all the way from Kilkenny and you came to sit in the Dublin Lesbian Line offices to do this. Dublin Lesbian Line – how did you get to know us, what made you want to do this for us?
BH: I got to know you first I think it was last February or March, I might have the date wrong, I did the Women’s Wellness course, it was a six week course and I found it brilliant I got to meet other girls and at the time, where I’m from in Kilkenny again felt so alone, there’s no community there at all for LGBT people. At one stage they tried to set up one and each time they did it I was the only person who showed up. So at the end they gave up on it and I was starting to really feel depressed and down in myself and saying Oh God. I forget I think it was on Facebook when I seen the ad for it there here. I think I was on a bus to an LGBT group in Carlow and I was frantically trying to reply back and try to copy and paste the [registration form] and then when I got here I really enjoyed the course every Monday. I’d spend all week with it in the back of my mind, doing all business stuff but thinking - just another few days, just another few days, until I’m there again and I can’t thank DLL enough so thank you.
LL: Oh thank you. It was great to get to know you then, you were a great addition and the fact that you came here every Monday from Kilkenny - it was incredible. Thanks Becky. And Jennifer would you mind saying how you got to know us?
JMG: Yes I think I got an email from a friend of mine who was actually in DLL, we were mutual friends at the time. Like Becky, I’d mentioned to her that I was struggling in Galway you know, I suppose they are quite tribal enough, the LGBT community but I suppose the age is very mainstream, you know eighteen up to maybe twenty five. Which I felt there was nothing for me. And so I seen this email and to be honest I didn’t realise it was a workshop, I just thought it was a chat and I remember when I landed I walked in and I seen all the goodies and all the sweets and I thought this is going to be a good day. And yourself Laura Louise you were so welcoming and I’d never experienced a welcome like that in my life. And I’d been to groups before and you just kind of sit there and you’re quite pensive and nervous but that wasn’t there with you. It was like you could see what we needed. And the questions, the questions which came up we were like - yes that’s the kind of things we want to know, that’s the kind of things we want help with. It was one of the best day I ever had since transitioning, there was about twenty people there, there was lots of chatting and laughing and lots of drinking afterwards, I think! But the whole day was fabulous. I can’t thank DLL enough for putting the whole event on for us, it was fantastic. I will be eternally grateful for it I have to say.
LL: Ah Jennifer you’re so good thank you. We do a lot of events and courses, that was how we met Becky. That Finding Your Community Day was back in 2018, we have the funding to put another one on, so we’re delighted. That was one of our favourite events to put on, it just felt like such a special day, like magical or something. It was brilliant.
JMG: I think there was such a level of honesty from that group. ‘Cause I remember when we first went in and we were like ‘God who’s going to speak first? Not me!’ I do remember Becky speaking up and thinking ‘My God fair play to her’. I still do find it quite intimidating because you don’t know people. I did a wellness, I did a wellness course in the HSE in Galway in Merlin Park and there was that sort of pensive feeling but as it went on you felt like you had a type of connection with people. I mean we’d all open up. It was nice actually to get out what you were really looking for, y’know what you wanted, instead of talking about issues that aren't really relevant for you.
LL: So the two of you are here today, and the reason I asked the two of you to come in at the same time is because you actually made friends that day, didn't you?
BH: Yeah I remember that day I walked into the room and sat down of course, and meeting everyone and during the first two or three minutes I made contact with Jennifer, and then Jennifer started speaking and as the day went on I thought 'I really connect with this person, this person is on the same journey, and she's isolated kind of like me, in the rural area'. So I said ‘I really hope I get to talk to Jennifer’ like, and lucky enough it came to lunchtime and I think I was trying to pack up quick and get down so I'd get a seat beside her like (J laughs). So lucky enough we ended up getting a seat beside each other and just chatting away and just to meet the other women who were there that day and a few of us ended up heading off to Street 66 which was my first time so, have to go back again! And when I was there I met up with another trans person from Dublin that I've never met, but just in contact through Facebook so lucky enough that day she happened to be in Street 66 so we finished back in Mac Donald’s before I got my bus home.
All: Laughter
LL: Sounds like the perfect day!
All: Laughter
LL: And how did you two manage to stay in touch? Because I know sometimes people meet and connect straight away and then they're afraid to take that next step?
JMG: I think we, I think we swapped numbers - as far as I can remember, because I know I had quite a bit to drink that day! But I was just on a high, because I met up with a load of people from DLL and Amach [Running Amach] and I remember, like you'd made such an impression on me Becky, the whole day, I'd been thinking the same as you – ‘I hope I get to sit beside her now’, like y’know because she's a really genuine nice woman and I want to hook up with her and see, because you'd said you were struggling where you were. And I thought ‘Oh thank God it's nice to actually meet someone around my own age’ so eh, so I think we swapped numbers and then we were on WhatsApp. Because I think I said this to Laura, I'm not big into social media - I think when you ask how I meet people, I said kind of wander round! Socially, I go into pubs or places and just start talking, I would be quite sociable. I think because of the WhatsApp thing, that friendship took off instantly. It was effortless, it was never forced, and we had a lot in common anyway. So it’s going from stint to stint alright.
I suppose, one thing that was quite apparent from our early discussions on the phone, I said, if we're lonely and we feel marginalised, as transgender women, and my friend in Galway as well is the same, surely to God there must be more people around the country like this. So we felt there was a need, certainly a need out there to try to get a group up and running for all the transgender people, so we took the plunge, we started I think it was last week there, we didn't do a lot I suppose me and my silent partner didn't do much but Becky has got the name, we have the website up and running and we got fair bit of feedback.
BH: The page is called ‘Inclusion’ it's on Facebook. Just tap in ‘Inclusion’ and you should find us, and we're hoping to meet up once, maybe once or twice every month, and we're hoping, our aim is to, because other people like us in rural areas in Ireland feel so isolated and alone, I've been in contact with people form Kerry, Connemara, all different parts of Ireland and like us they feel isolated and we'd like to see the group move from county to county and hopefully please God in a few years it'll inspire other groups to spring up and develop from there. Inclusion, just to bring us together. At the moment we just felt the mainstream groups in Ireland for transgender people doesn't cater for the older people, we just feel our life experience is totally different and we can't make that connection so yeah this what we really want to do is reach out and bring other women and trans men, just together.
LL: I love that you’re moving it around the country. But also, what we see in the helpline a lot, a lot of people especially when they’re in the early days of coming out and transitioning they don't really want to go to something in their own county they would like to travel where they can have that little bit more anonymity or feel a little bit safer. Becky, what kind of set up will it be? Social or, how will you structure it?
BH: Yes we're there for it to be started off social, but still by being social by meeting people and being social we'll be able to support each other, like myself and Jennifer, we went to that Finding Your Community and from that we developed a friendship and we're able to support each other. There recently, where I was going for my first appointment for my endocrinologist, Jennifer accompanied me to that. So like it's just, for friendship, socialise, and help people that feel isolated. And for people that feel alone, just to say we’re out here too you’re not alone! I always thought I was alone where I am sometimes I think I still I am, I think I’m the only person I know where I'm living and I'd love to meet somebody else whose going through the same, to help others, to pay back.
LL: Thank you Becky. So, Becky you spoke at an event that we did last year and you were absolutely fantastic (Becky: thanks) and if you were comfortable with it and you don't have to say, is there anything that you would be comfortable sharing about your… what do you call it? You're jumping out of the closet?
All: Laughter
LL: And you spoke about how you found people through your course and that kind of thing.
All: Laughter
BH: Yes I suppose a quick flashback to the last year and a half.
LL: A lot has happened in that year and a half!
BH: Yeah I think a lot of trans people - I kind of done things backwards, like I first I came out to my friend, after her I came out to my sisters and from there I didn't know how my brother was going to react, being a guy, completely different. And he's often make homophobic comments growing up and I'd think ‘Oh jees I can't do anything, I can't say anything, how is he going to react?’ but he was actually amazing, he came up to me the next day and asked me how I was, any news, and of course I'm acting ‘aw, not at all any news yourself?. And then he says, ‘Jean and Tracy were up with me last night, I know.’ and I said ‘Oh, what do you know?’ and so I said it to him then, and big hug and he said, ‘It's ok with me I have loads of gay friends where I work it's fine, I'm there for you when you need to come out with anyone else and any trouble give me a ring.’
So that surprised me, and then one night I accidentally outed meself to the world, I was on Facebook and I was wondering how would my name look on Facebook. I went in to change my name thinking well I've not that many friends here in Ireland, at this point anyway, it'll be my only my American friends might be up so I changed my name on Facebook and I didn’t realise there was a rule, that you have to wait a month, to change it back again. So eh then, because of growing up being trans I was constantly hiding stuff and constantly lying about stuff so on the spot I was able to make up an excuse at this stage it was about 3 o’ clock in the morning say and I hopped into Facebook again, I opened up a new account and then sent out a message to all my friends saying I was hacked. And then of course a few days later, one of my American friends messaged me back and she said ‘I seen that on Facebook’ and she said ‘You weren't hacked were you?’ and I said ‘no’ (laughter).
From that then I was terrified, about the rest of my family, I didn't want them finding out from a third person like so then I started telling me aunts and uncles and one of the uncles, I haven’t heard from him since - I'm dead to him more or less, and never darken me door again. So then I was talking to one of my sisters about it and she said ‘Look how often do you see this person?’ and I said, ‘True - maybe once or twice in a year’. So I often think about that in the back of my mind and I hope someday it might change because I would’ve grown up with this person as a child, so we would have been close, he was actually my godparent. So from there then, I agreed with my sisters, this was back in October 2017, I agreed with them until, January. So of course, New Year’s eve night, strike of 12 - I jumped out of the closest.
LL: Amazing!
BH: Like Cinderella I changed!
LL: That's incredible Becky, that's incredible.
BH: So I was expecting a few to get a surprise or whatever but no most of them aren't a bit shocked.
All: Laughter
BH: It wasn't news to a lot of them. So then after hopping out of the closet I had seen me GP, before that - actually the month before that I had been to my counsellor - I go to another mental health group which is called GROW, which is, I was basically going for anxiety, not realising this is all where it stemmed from. So the second meeting I had with her she stopped me and said ‘Before you do anything I have to say something to you’, and I said, ‘Is everything ok?’ and she said ‘Yeah I just want to let you know before you even opened your mouth’ she said ‘that first day I knew the gender issue was going to come up’. And I just thought to myself Jesus I thought I was hiding it well!
Throughout my life I would have been dropping hints y'know buying girly clothes, or trying to grow my hair and still no one was getting the hint (All: Laughter). Even there lately, I had someone visit me room and I’ve a big huge framed picture of a fairy and they still didn't get the hint when they’d seen that! From there then, February, I was talking to my GP, he was really helpful and it turns out there was another patient, and it turns out they're a facilitator of another group I go to whose trans as well. So it's like the two of us were training our doctor how to treat trans people! So she got me on the road and I was saying what can I do I'm tired of waiting for this endocrinologist and the whole stuff, so I started getting laser therapy. Then I had the laser therapy done and I said what else can I do, so then I went off changing me names. And especially my younger sister who'd be the... well she's the youngest but she'd be the boss of the family, and she didn't want me to change my name, in case it was too early - afraid I might change my mind, to her I think she was afraid of losing something. So I got to a stage I said ‘Look I'm filling out forms, I'm in a different course, people know me as Becky but if I get another form that's official I have to use my old name.’ So then I went back to her and I said, I wrote her a message on Facebook and she said ‘OK I understand’. So then I changed me name, I went up the courthouse, the Four Courts, and that was a bit of a thing and straight away then I applied for my new birth cert then two weeks later applied for gender recognition and then I got on to TENI then and other people trying to figure out how do I get my new passport.
So the easiest way for getting the passport, for anyone that's stuck like me, when I was trying to get advice, you have to basically apply as a new person and slip in your old passport and make sure you enclose the original copy of your gender recognition cert because if you're like me I just enclosed a copy, but they were saying they wanted the original but I was afraid to send the original in case it'd be lost. And then the other thing that's come up it happened me last year, the last referendum we had - I can't remember what it was - I couldn't vote because my name wasn't changed on the registry. I thought your name was automatically changed on all government things. I'm trying to think what referendum (LL: Abortion? Blasphemy? All: Laughter). Abortion I think, I had to go and vote for that one and I arrived at the polling station and it was me old passport they looked at the old passport they looked at me and they said that's not you why are you giving me this. So like a lot of trans people then I had to come out again.
So I suppose one of the hardest ones to come out was at my gym. So when I had joined them I hadn't given them my new name, my name now, Rebecca, so I said what do I do. So I went in and didn't say anything to them, and then about 2 months later I came out to them when I had my name officially changed. I explained I didn't know what to do when I joined because my name wasn't officially changed. And then said OK, they'll change it but they still wanted me to use the male changing room. And so I had agreed because I just tried to make things easier, for other people I suppose, than myself. So it was around June or July, it got to the stage where I couldn't handle it any more. One night, I'll always remember, I got one man stopped me and asked me what am I doing there, really aggressively, and I just said to myself ‘keep walking, keep walking’ and then he stopped me again and I'd look around and the whole dressing room was looking. Or one night I was blow-drying my hair and, I was sorry I ever done it, I looked into the mirror and I could see all the heads from all around the dressing room just staring over at me. And another day, the toilet, I used to always get changed in the toilet, I wouldn't get changed with the rest - it's an open plan thing, and I could hear two lads talking 'There's a girl in the dressing room, did you notice that?' and I just carried on, I was happy to hear him saying it! But at the same time I was kind of getting nervous, so I went to management and I said it to them again and there was meetings going on for about 2 weeks, about 2 or 3 weeks, what were they going to do with me, at this stage I went down I gave them copies of my gender cert, I gave them copies of everything I had -any official documents just to let them know this is real like, this is me. So eventually they agreed, ‘you have men stopping you all the time but you don't see anyone stopping you in the women's’. So I had showed them... I watched a great show, I'd recommend to anyone, I didn't think I'd find it helpful, it's called I am Jazz it's about a younger teenager that’s transitioned fully now, and she wore a swimsuit and a little swim skirt. So I showed them the picture and I said look, I took a picture of myself in the mirror in it and I said ‘Look this is what I'll be wearing’. And they accepted it then on condition that I go in on a 3 month trial. So for those 3 months every time I'd see a worker coming out onto the floor area of the pool my heart'd be going like jaws I'd be thinking ‘This is it now I'm going to be kicked out. What am I going to do?’ So people used to say to me ‘Why don't you go somewhere else? Why don't you go to a different gym? There's one up the road.’ And at this stage I just said, ‘No’ I said ‘I can't’ (pause, emotional) 'why can't you?' 'I'm not doing this for me anymore. It's for ... [voice crack] Sorry...’It's for every other transgender person out there that comes after me.’ So after that then I started, I passed the 3 months trial and they allowed to let me use it. And on the first day they let me use it, I was starting a Beauty Therapy course in Kilkenny. Which has been amazing, it's something I always wanted to do, but I couldn't because there would have been questions asked, so it was easier to not do it, and now I'm able to do it. And everyone has just been so supportive and their friends and family. And of course the first thing that popped up was after the first week one of the tutors called me aside and ‘We need to talk to you for a minute.’ And I said ‘Yes you know you can talk to me about anything if it's to do with transitioning.’ And she said ‘It is actually, there's the problem that's coming up with the toilets.’ And I said ‘What's up with the toilets?' 'We want to know, what toilet, we want to give you a separate toilet'. I'd be using the teacher's female toilet. And I said ‘Why would I be using that? That's segregation.’ and she said to me ‘Which toilet have you been using?’ and I said ‘I’ve been using the ladies all along’ and she laughed and said that's fine.
LL: So was she trying to be supportive (BH: Oh she was) or was she trying to separate you?
BH: Oh she was being supportive, and like I met up with the principal because I had to see him and I said’ I believe there's a problem with the toilets’ and he apologised and he said ‘That was really my fault, it shouldn't have got out of hand like that,’ he said. ‘Really’ he said, ‘we should have called you in in the summer and ironed this out. But if you’re happy using that then we are too.’ Then I'm dyslexic as well, so they gave me a computer and all that business, so it's great.
LL: God Becky you're some woman wow! That's amazing! I think that example of your college shows, lots of times people are trying to be supportive but instead of asking someone what they need, they go and do what they think they need and instead it makes things worse for the person, whereas if they'd just asked you in the first place, ‘Hey Becky what toilets do you want to use?’, yknow there wouldn't have been an issue. I'm glad that it got resolved, and that they apologised as well.
BH: They've been really good like. Certain subjects would come up because I'm doing Beauty Therapy, one of them came up with waxing, with bikini waxing, Jesus what am I going to do here? So lucky enough I went to the tutor and said to her ‘Look I'm really worried about this bikini waxing.’ And it's done very discreetly and all and she said ‘Look I can do one of the girls’ and they were fine letting me work away doing whatever I needed to do, and I just said, at the moment I don't feel I can get it done meself. So they were happy with that. But next year is going to be the bigger challenge, I haven't had me operation yet and it's going to be Brazilian waxing and everything next year so it's going to be great fun next year!
All: Laughter
LL: How were your classmates when you came out to them?
BH: Yeah they were grand, the first day I had an appointment in the afternoon, and I came back the next day and one of me friends said ‘You'll be going mad everyone introduced themselves yesterday’ she said ‘I know how much that meant to you.’ I said yes, so I called one of the tutors aside after one of the classes and said it to her I said ‘I believe everyone was introduced, I really wanted to do it.’ She said ‘Do you really want to like, what do you want to talk about?’ I said just who I am like, my transition. So I came out to the class, gave them my story brief story, wrote a poem, of course I was crying during that and then said to everyone I wanted to get this out now, I feel like I'm the elephant in the room. And one of the girls just replied, ‘There was never an elephant in the room’ (pause, emotional). So yeah it just went really good and everyone has just been so welcoming and supportive of my journey.
LL: As they should be. But y’know there's still the experiences like the one you had in the gym to make it stand out when people are supportive. Thank you so much Becky.
BH: Thank you.
LL: And you gave some really helpful tips and insights for anyone that's at the start of their journey. And thank you for making a stand at your gym as well. I know not everybody is able to do that, but sometimes somebody has to. So it was really really brave of you. Thank you Becky.
And Jennifer, if you don't mind, you were telling me earlier, how when you first came out, you went over to Manchester?
JMG: Yeah I suppose. I went over to Manchester in Summer of 2013. So I started off...I suppose I came out very late, I kind of hugely underestimated it. I'd been a crossdresser for years, but I'd never had the courage to y'know go out in public. I think as time went on then the impulse, or the urge became too great, I had to go out, I had to know one way or another whether I wanted to live it. I went to Manchester, and there was dressing services there and part of that dressing service is that you get dressed and they do up the hair and the nails and all that stuff, but they would also go out with you y'know. There was a group in Manchester called Manchester Concord, and so when I had my makeover done and all that I got a taxi to the restaurant, and I remember coming out of the car and my knees were bumping together, it looked like I was drunk already even though I didn't have a drop! And there was these two girls waiting for me from the group, from Manchester Concord, and I had spaghetti Bolognese - which is never a good idea if you have a big long blonde wig on! I was still eating my dinner about 3 hours later! But they were fantastic. And that was the first inkling anyway, and that was such a liberating experience I think and it was and it wasn't, because I kind of knew then… it was such a shock to my system, because I thought I could contain it. I wasn't giving it the respect it deserved, I repressed it for so long, for so many years - but then it was open, as I said, the floodgates were open a bit then. And then when I went back...I should mention that I've worked in the Regional in Galway for 12 years and when I came back I had no idea what I was going to do so I sat down and the best plan I could come up with was, well look it, put on your female clothes, go into work.
Well actually I said I'd go into Galway town the first weekend, now when I say wearing clothes, my God! The clothes I bought, I bought these silicone implants I wanted to put in size 28 and I hit the wrong digit and it was size 38 so when they landed it was like two basketballs (All: Laughter) and I wore them out in Galway with a little tank top. My dress sense, well it's not great now but it was non-existent then! I don't know I probably looked like someone who was trying to be 15, a 15 year old girl. Yknow, in a 45 year old body. So people were doing a lot of staring, but the great thing was it answered a question very early on - I did actually feel very relaxed and comfortable. I said this feels right, this feels right.
And then of course there's the work part, I remember I walked into work and I had on a pair of women's jeans and a pair of ankle boots. And that was probably one of the most terrifying experiences of my life, because I run into over 100 people a day because I cover most areas of the hospital I go around collecting charts. That was, I'd say the first two years was just about going in and, it was about existing really. I had no idea how to handle it, they had no idea how to handle it, my manager took me in and said 'Emmm, are you feeling OK?' and I said 'Well I'm not sure'. There were all these rumours 'Are you gay? Are you having a mid-life crisis?' and all that. And I hadn't told them anything because there was no such thing as a dress sense as far as I knew in the hospital, and after a while I kind of said to them ‘I'm living as a woman now’ and they were saying ‘Right will you be coming in and wearing miniskirts and all that because we need to know what size, what you're going to be wearing.’ And I said ‘Well I don't think you can ask me that but don't worry it will be...it will be ...(LL: Work appropriate?) work appropriate yeah’. So they were like OK, but still they hadn't a notion.
So of course the first issue that came up was the toilet issue. So for about 3 or 4 weeks I was going around, I told my manager, who really, I think found the whole thing quite distasteful, she wasn't supportive whatsoever. In regards to the staff, yeah, that was - some people were ok, the best way is to say it was like an explosion within a department, some people weren't reacting well, some people were, some people weren't talking. Some people didn't know whether to approach me or not. And I suppose at the time TENI came and gave a few talks, which was very prevalent at the time - I'll come back to them. I suppose the hardest thing, of course, and the biggest problem I have and still currently have is the misgendering and mispronouning which goes on quite a bit.
LL: And Jennifer for anybody who doesn't know what misgendering and mispronouning is would you mind explaining that please?
JMG: Yeah so they would misgender me, so I live as a woman, so they would say 'He's coming up to collect those charts' and one of the worst ones is when I go up in the elevator and I hold the door and someone says 'Hold the door there for me buddy' or 'Thank you sir' or stuff like that. Now I wouldn't say it to the patients or stuff like that because they're not trained, but I suppose the worrying part is that it's mainly staff that's doing it. And I suppose going back to my own area, the staff has changed in the last 5 or 6 years, so it's all new staff, they're quite up to date. But there hasn't been any really training in the last 2, 2 and a half years, so that sort of left me in no man’s land.
TENI's last 5, 6 talks have all been cancelled so that sort of left me in no-man's land with the mispronouning. It is psychologically damaging, because it was happening at such a rate. So I made a record, I think it happened 15 times in one month. And some days it can happen 4 or 5 times, or once or twice. And people react 3 different ways I found, so if people misgender you, they'll automatically change the subject. So if I say Oh you misgendered me there', 'Oh and we'll see you again tomorrow' or they'll apologise, say ‘Oh I'm sorry about that’, and I'll say ‘OK that's fine’ or they don't take it well at all from being corrected. They can get quite, they can be a bit bitchy about it or they can be very negative about it then and the next time around they won't talk.
So I went to my managers and I said ‘Yknow this is a big problem, we need to get proper training and we need to TENI in.’ I said ‘What's my options?’ And they basically said the only option open to you is to take a grievance against these people. And I said ‘I'm not taking a grievance against staff because of lack of training’. And I think the way the structure is set up within the HSE is that there's no accountability, nobody makes any plans for anything that's happening so in their case, so of course, I tried the union, and they said to me, that they were too busy with the housing crisis thing and they said ‘We'd love to help you but we can't.’ So I thought that could be an avenue that could trickle down to all their members, but that became a dead end, he was gonna help me that came to nothing. So I think I got to a stage in there, I remember standing in a little storage room one day and I said stop now, stop now, that's enough. I was still amazed that there was nothing coming, like 'I'll look into that' or 'How'd you get on?' I locked horns with the head of HR because she said she helped to write the policy, so I got quite animated one day after being misgendered and I said ‘A policy is only as good’ I said, ‘It's only words on a paper unless they're being enforced.’ And she said 'Well sure look it if you've corrected people, what's the problem? The next time around they won't do it and even if they do get training they might still do it.’ And I said ‘I can't believe this, it's not up to me to keep correcting them - do you realise how traumatising that is for me’, so of course then they said ‘We’ll get on to TENI’ and that.
And I did say I'd come back to them (TENI) I mean, I've dealings with TENI over a period of 2, 2 and a half years and unfortunately, and they do a lot of good work , and they're an important organisation but personally I haven't had good experiences with them. So then that's when I stopped, OK that's when I said you're at point zero in here - I've got nowhere with the union, nowhere with HR, got nowhere with TENI, so yknow that's one of the reasons I'm here as well yknow, obviously we're here for people of our own age but I felt like, I'm trying to hold the tide back with a toothpick it's open season in that place, and of course they're apologetic, or those 3 ways that they reply, but I'm so incredibly disappointed in the external lack of support I've had. I got to a stage where I thought I'm going to have a breakdown here, because I wasn't coping well and I was actually reacting, I wouldn't say hostile, but I was getting quite animated, and if the situation was left there could have been a row ensuing and this was going on then, this was going on I thought I'm not going to last here much longer if I don't put something in place, I need to look after myself.
Of course, I’ve always been a big - I love spirituality, I love Abraham Hicks, Louise Hay, yknow, so I thought get back to the core, get back to the basics, you want to be the best woman that you can. So from listening to all those talks, I drew back, so if people misgendered me or mispronouned me I thought OK it's happened but you’ve got to react - you have to make it yourself now, so I'm trying to be less reactionary. But at the same time I'm trying to cope with the massive disappointment of the lack of support now, so that's where I'm at with the moment I'm working very hard on that. And most days, yknow it's good but, you can only bend so far to your principals, as I said earlier I don't want to leave without at least having tried to change things in there yknow, but we need to get something sorted out in there, and so yeah hopefully the sooner the better yknow.
LL: Absolutely. And before we finish up, you mentioned earlier about kinds of difficulties that you've had to overcome, or are still trying to overcome in your case Jennifer, how do you mind yourselves? What are your self-care things? How do you build up your resilience and keep going?
JMG: I do like listening to Abraham Hicks, yknow positivity talks so, as I said I had to come up with a plan a few weeks ago and I thought, can I stay working in here? So I went home and I put a plan together so I'd listen to one in the morning, a positivity talk, yknow -changing your life, changing your outlook, changing your reactions, how you react to people. Same thing last thing at night, put one on. In the meantime do the yoga twice a week, reading books, doing the Toastmasters, so I looked at all the things that I enjoy doing and just generally be a nice person. I thought just because this happened, it isn't your life, I thought don't get consumed by it because at the end of the day it's only happening in one specific area, yknow. So I was able to compartmentalise it in a way, and that's certainly helping yknow. I like to think of myself as a sociable person. I joined that - there's so many social groups in Galway my God! - you wouldn't be able to work if you had to go to them all (laughs). I think it's brilliant in this day and age, with the internet tool, that side of it's so wonderful just yesterday I went to the courage festival in Galway, there's a festival on every week in Galway, and being a book reader I did go to a book reading yesterday which was brilliant and yknow it's great to meet people, likeminded people who are into reading books as well so I suppose my horizons have broadened.
I don't want to go back to it but I suppose the work I'm doing in the hospital is half clerical which is predominantly female and the other half is still male, and that's the part I've sort of moved on mentally from the male part but then when I go in and I'm doing it, it doesn't feel right to me. So as part of my growth and things to help me I'm trying to obviously retrain maybe in a clerical position. So I was hired as a male porter, so I'm trying to change that now by going we have to look at the whole thing of transgender people, what's appropriate when you're so far down the line transitioned, we need to look into that in the workplace as well that doesn't seem to have been touched either unfortunately. And that leaves you in no man's land really, because you want these changes to be implanted but really in my case I'm just doing them myself on a day to day basis, no one's come near me no one's asked me, and when I'm questioned about it I have to stand my ground. But yeah a lot of those things I just said, they helped me. I like humour and comedy, it's a big help, so I do watch a lot of funny things. I watched Outnumbered there, yknow that British show, about the couple with young kids which is great ‘cause the kids are so funny. For me that's great too. And Becky did mention the wellness course earlier, it's a brilliant course because they ran them in the hospital I think similar to the ones you did, and I'm sorry I didn't go on it because it was probably a different perspective than that one but they're hugely helpful, one of the good things the HSE run. And I'd just like to say there are a lot of good people working in the hospital. But again it's the lack of training and stuff like that that's letting us down. But yes it's those other things I find helpful. And always having a good outlook, a positive outlook, and I say glass half full that's my motto.
LL: Thank you so much. That's a really holistic and healthy approach. and full because it looks like you're working on your self-care in all areas of your life, and not just in one or two. You're very good humoured and funny, but also I think it's great that both of you are - and I know not everybody is in a position to do this or is that kind of person - but you're taking your experiences where you see something is missing and you're using them to make changes, which I think don't feel good at the time but afterwards when you've made that achievement, when you've changed things for the better for other people, I think it's incredible. Thank you. Becky, what were you going to say? Oh you've a list I see!
All: Laughter.
BH: I was trying to write them down so I could remember, that helps me in my transition. It'd be family, mainly my nieces and nephews. In times I'd be down and I'd go and visit them and they just cheer me back up they're a tonic. And also, into exercise mainly the gym I go swimming every day and there'd be also the cinema. I go once a week with a friend for relief from stress and anxiety from the exams so that helps to relieve that. And also by joining the protests in Dublin, fighting for trans rights and the This Is Me campaign, which I find fantastic, especially now they've finally got a confirmed meeting with our health minister at long last, long overdue. And other things that would help me, at the start, well I'm still in the early stages of transitioning, was the programme I am Jazz I presume you'll find it on Youtube, the other one the controversial one - Caitlyn Jenner's show, I am Cait, but for me in that show it wasn't Cait herself it was the other trans women on it that were asking her questions or like they were informing her about changing her passport and stuff and that's one again I thought oh I never thought of passports, and about when you're getting rid of your male clothes to your female clothes, and like me I woulda had a cry as you're doing it. Because part of the process is the other person done nothing wrong, but it's your time now. This is who you are.
LL: That's beautiful Becky, that's really beautiful. Thank you so much.
BH: Watching other shows that might appear on the telly, Translife I think was the name of it, and you had one on Channel 4 there lately, The Making of Me - when you're watching the stories, and you can relate it really helps you, it inspires you just to keep going on the journey.
LL: Thank you so much and the very last thing I want to ask you. If there's anyone listening who’s not out or who is at the early stages of coming out or transitioning what would you tell them, or what would you look back and tell yourself at that stage?
JMG: Well, em the first thing I would say is don't be too hard on yourself, you'll make loads of mistakes, but you'll also do a lot of right things. As you said, half the enjoyment is learning from the mistakes - there's so many things to look forward to. Like I know, the people who are out there and they're vulnerable, that's how we met, I think if you have the tiniest bit of courage, do try and meet up with other people - there is nice people out there you know. Never give up, remember this, there's other people going through things as well, but you're not on your own that's all I will say we're all fighting the fight on some front somewhere or another. At the end of the day we'll all try to get behind each other to help each other if we can a bit.
LL: Becky do you have anything you want to say?
BH: Yeah, just there is light at the end of this tunnel, as hard as it seems. And yeah just you will get a number of times on the journey - it's a rollercoaster of emotions, mostly positive. Like I've never had so many friends. I've never done so many things. I never thought I would've been sitting here, and things that you think are impossible - they can come true.
OUTRO: The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line's Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy. And we would like to thank Becky and Jennifer for speaking to us for this episode. You can find more information about Inclusion and upcoming meet ups on their Facebook page. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community. If you've been affected by anything in this podcast you can reach us on 018729911, or contact us on our online chat service on www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Dublin Lesbian Line is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions and relies on any support you can provide us. Whether it's 2 euro or 100 euro it makes a huge difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.
We began by asking them to introduce themselves.
Jennifer McGee (JMG): Hello yeah my name is Jennifer McGee and I’m from Galway. I’ve lived in Galway for about twelve years, I’m originally from Guidor in County Donegal, which is in the countryside, it’s a lovely part of the world – when it’s not raining. Very much like Galway really. And I did live in Dublin as well, I lived in Dublin for probably ten years and then moved to Galway in 2008. And I am currently working in the Regional Hospital in Galway. So yeah I think that my introduction.
Laura Louise Condell (LL): Great thanks Jennifer.
Becky Harold (BH): Thank you I’m Becky Harold, I’m from Kilkenny and like most places in rural Ireland there’s nothing around for me. At the moment I’m studying Beauty Therapy, which has been great, everyone has been so supportive, including the teachers, principal have been so supportive of me on my journey and really enjoying it. And I go swimming most days as well. I recently started T blockers so really have been alright on them. I feel more relaxed and finally on my journey. So I’ll pass you back to Jennifer.
LL: And sorry before we go back to Jennifer, for those who don’t know – what are T Blockers?
BH: T Blockers, they block the male, god I can’t even pronounce the word, tes…tes…
LL: Testosterone.
BH: (laughing) Testosterone.
LL: You’re so done with it you can’t even say it.
BH: Basically they stop all male functions from happening. Yeah I’m still at the stage where I’m learning things myself. For three days before getting them I was more nervous about getting them, I was more thinking I was going to wake up and see miracles.
LL: Yeah (laughing).
BH: And wondering is this normal, what’s happened? Like I know lately I felt a bit of weight gain slightly.
LL: OK
BH: And I was told that’s normal that when you start with the oestrogen things will start redistributing the fat. The hopefully I’ll have bosoms by September.
LL: Getting your curves. And Jennifer was there something you felt you wanted to say?
JMG: I was just going to say, I was probably going to mention my hobbies. I suppose I started my own transition about five and a half years ago. I was starting from zero again, I had lost a lot of family, a lot of friends. There wasn’t a lot of support networks at the time. I didn’t know how to go about you know, I suppose resocialising myself, if that’s the right term for it but so now five years later I have a vast amount of interests. I do hot yoga two times a week, I’m part of a book club, I’m part of a social meet up group on a Sunday which is basically coffee and a chat. I’m in Galway Toastmasters for anyone who doesn’t know that that’s to do with self-improvement, speaking in public and stuff like that.
But it has been quite a tough climb back, yeah you know back out of the social doldrums. It’s like being catapulted out of a moving aeroplane. That’s the best way to describe it. Without getting too far into it – the social fallout can be massive.
LL: Of coming out?
JMG: Well when starting to transition, certainly your own ideas about it and how it’s going to go start to disappear. It is exciting but there were lots of tough days, you know but it makes you resilient, you know, in the long run.
LL: Thanks Jennifer. God you’re both so active you put me to shame. So before we get into our topics that we’re going to talk about today – you are so good to travel on a Sunday afternoon and miss your meet up, all the way from Galway, all the way from Kilkenny and you came to sit in the Dublin Lesbian Line offices to do this. Dublin Lesbian Line – how did you get to know us, what made you want to do this for us?
BH: I got to know you first I think it was last February or March, I might have the date wrong, I did the Women’s Wellness course, it was a six week course and I found it brilliant I got to meet other girls and at the time, where I’m from in Kilkenny again felt so alone, there’s no community there at all for LGBT people. At one stage they tried to set up one and each time they did it I was the only person who showed up. So at the end they gave up on it and I was starting to really feel depressed and down in myself and saying Oh God. I forget I think it was on Facebook when I seen the ad for it there here. I think I was on a bus to an LGBT group in Carlow and I was frantically trying to reply back and try to copy and paste the [registration form] and then when I got here I really enjoyed the course every Monday. I’d spend all week with it in the back of my mind, doing all business stuff but thinking - just another few days, just another few days, until I’m there again and I can’t thank DLL enough so thank you.
LL: Oh thank you. It was great to get to know you then, you were a great addition and the fact that you came here every Monday from Kilkenny - it was incredible. Thanks Becky. And Jennifer would you mind saying how you got to know us?
JMG: Yes I think I got an email from a friend of mine who was actually in DLL, we were mutual friends at the time. Like Becky, I’d mentioned to her that I was struggling in Galway you know, I suppose they are quite tribal enough, the LGBT community but I suppose the age is very mainstream, you know eighteen up to maybe twenty five. Which I felt there was nothing for me. And so I seen this email and to be honest I didn’t realise it was a workshop, I just thought it was a chat and I remember when I landed I walked in and I seen all the goodies and all the sweets and I thought this is going to be a good day. And yourself Laura Louise you were so welcoming and I’d never experienced a welcome like that in my life. And I’d been to groups before and you just kind of sit there and you’re quite pensive and nervous but that wasn’t there with you. It was like you could see what we needed. And the questions, the questions which came up we were like - yes that’s the kind of things we want to know, that’s the kind of things we want help with. It was one of the best day I ever had since transitioning, there was about twenty people there, there was lots of chatting and laughing and lots of drinking afterwards, I think! But the whole day was fabulous. I can’t thank DLL enough for putting the whole event on for us, it was fantastic. I will be eternally grateful for it I have to say.
LL: Ah Jennifer you’re so good thank you. We do a lot of events and courses, that was how we met Becky. That Finding Your Community Day was back in 2018, we have the funding to put another one on, so we’re delighted. That was one of our favourite events to put on, it just felt like such a special day, like magical or something. It was brilliant.
JMG: I think there was such a level of honesty from that group. ‘Cause I remember when we first went in and we were like ‘God who’s going to speak first? Not me!’ I do remember Becky speaking up and thinking ‘My God fair play to her’. I still do find it quite intimidating because you don’t know people. I did a wellness, I did a wellness course in the HSE in Galway in Merlin Park and there was that sort of pensive feeling but as it went on you felt like you had a type of connection with people. I mean we’d all open up. It was nice actually to get out what you were really looking for, y’know what you wanted, instead of talking about issues that aren't really relevant for you.
LL: So the two of you are here today, and the reason I asked the two of you to come in at the same time is because you actually made friends that day, didn't you?
BH: Yeah I remember that day I walked into the room and sat down of course, and meeting everyone and during the first two or three minutes I made contact with Jennifer, and then Jennifer started speaking and as the day went on I thought 'I really connect with this person, this person is on the same journey, and she's isolated kind of like me, in the rural area'. So I said ‘I really hope I get to talk to Jennifer’ like, and lucky enough it came to lunchtime and I think I was trying to pack up quick and get down so I'd get a seat beside her like (J laughs). So lucky enough we ended up getting a seat beside each other and just chatting away and just to meet the other women who were there that day and a few of us ended up heading off to Street 66 which was my first time so, have to go back again! And when I was there I met up with another trans person from Dublin that I've never met, but just in contact through Facebook so lucky enough that day she happened to be in Street 66 so we finished back in Mac Donald’s before I got my bus home.
All: Laughter
LL: Sounds like the perfect day!
All: Laughter
LL: And how did you two manage to stay in touch? Because I know sometimes people meet and connect straight away and then they're afraid to take that next step?
JMG: I think we, I think we swapped numbers - as far as I can remember, because I know I had quite a bit to drink that day! But I was just on a high, because I met up with a load of people from DLL and Amach [Running Amach] and I remember, like you'd made such an impression on me Becky, the whole day, I'd been thinking the same as you – ‘I hope I get to sit beside her now’, like y’know because she's a really genuine nice woman and I want to hook up with her and see, because you'd said you were struggling where you were. And I thought ‘Oh thank God it's nice to actually meet someone around my own age’ so eh, so I think we swapped numbers and then we were on WhatsApp. Because I think I said this to Laura, I'm not big into social media - I think when you ask how I meet people, I said kind of wander round! Socially, I go into pubs or places and just start talking, I would be quite sociable. I think because of the WhatsApp thing, that friendship took off instantly. It was effortless, it was never forced, and we had a lot in common anyway. So it’s going from stint to stint alright.
I suppose, one thing that was quite apparent from our early discussions on the phone, I said, if we're lonely and we feel marginalised, as transgender women, and my friend in Galway as well is the same, surely to God there must be more people around the country like this. So we felt there was a need, certainly a need out there to try to get a group up and running for all the transgender people, so we took the plunge, we started I think it was last week there, we didn't do a lot I suppose me and my silent partner didn't do much but Becky has got the name, we have the website up and running and we got fair bit of feedback.
BH: The page is called ‘Inclusion’ it's on Facebook. Just tap in ‘Inclusion’ and you should find us, and we're hoping to meet up once, maybe once or twice every month, and we're hoping, our aim is to, because other people like us in rural areas in Ireland feel so isolated and alone, I've been in contact with people form Kerry, Connemara, all different parts of Ireland and like us they feel isolated and we'd like to see the group move from county to county and hopefully please God in a few years it'll inspire other groups to spring up and develop from there. Inclusion, just to bring us together. At the moment we just felt the mainstream groups in Ireland for transgender people doesn't cater for the older people, we just feel our life experience is totally different and we can't make that connection so yeah this what we really want to do is reach out and bring other women and trans men, just together.
LL: I love that you’re moving it around the country. But also, what we see in the helpline a lot, a lot of people especially when they’re in the early days of coming out and transitioning they don't really want to go to something in their own county they would like to travel where they can have that little bit more anonymity or feel a little bit safer. Becky, what kind of set up will it be? Social or, how will you structure it?
BH: Yes we're there for it to be started off social, but still by being social by meeting people and being social we'll be able to support each other, like myself and Jennifer, we went to that Finding Your Community and from that we developed a friendship and we're able to support each other. There recently, where I was going for my first appointment for my endocrinologist, Jennifer accompanied me to that. So like it's just, for friendship, socialise, and help people that feel isolated. And for people that feel alone, just to say we’re out here too you’re not alone! I always thought I was alone where I am sometimes I think I still I am, I think I’m the only person I know where I'm living and I'd love to meet somebody else whose going through the same, to help others, to pay back.
LL: Thank you Becky. So, Becky you spoke at an event that we did last year and you were absolutely fantastic (Becky: thanks) and if you were comfortable with it and you don't have to say, is there anything that you would be comfortable sharing about your… what do you call it? You're jumping out of the closet?
All: Laughter
LL: And you spoke about how you found people through your course and that kind of thing.
All: Laughter
BH: Yes I suppose a quick flashback to the last year and a half.
LL: A lot has happened in that year and a half!
BH: Yeah I think a lot of trans people - I kind of done things backwards, like I first I came out to my friend, after her I came out to my sisters and from there I didn't know how my brother was going to react, being a guy, completely different. And he's often make homophobic comments growing up and I'd think ‘Oh jees I can't do anything, I can't say anything, how is he going to react?’ but he was actually amazing, he came up to me the next day and asked me how I was, any news, and of course I'm acting ‘aw, not at all any news yourself?. And then he says, ‘Jean and Tracy were up with me last night, I know.’ and I said ‘Oh, what do you know?’ and so I said it to him then, and big hug and he said, ‘It's ok with me I have loads of gay friends where I work it's fine, I'm there for you when you need to come out with anyone else and any trouble give me a ring.’
So that surprised me, and then one night I accidentally outed meself to the world, I was on Facebook and I was wondering how would my name look on Facebook. I went in to change my name thinking well I've not that many friends here in Ireland, at this point anyway, it'll be my only my American friends might be up so I changed my name on Facebook and I didn’t realise there was a rule, that you have to wait a month, to change it back again. So eh then, because of growing up being trans I was constantly hiding stuff and constantly lying about stuff so on the spot I was able to make up an excuse at this stage it was about 3 o’ clock in the morning say and I hopped into Facebook again, I opened up a new account and then sent out a message to all my friends saying I was hacked. And then of course a few days later, one of my American friends messaged me back and she said ‘I seen that on Facebook’ and she said ‘You weren't hacked were you?’ and I said ‘no’ (laughter).
From that then I was terrified, about the rest of my family, I didn't want them finding out from a third person like so then I started telling me aunts and uncles and one of the uncles, I haven’t heard from him since - I'm dead to him more or less, and never darken me door again. So then I was talking to one of my sisters about it and she said ‘Look how often do you see this person?’ and I said, ‘True - maybe once or twice in a year’. So I often think about that in the back of my mind and I hope someday it might change because I would’ve grown up with this person as a child, so we would have been close, he was actually my godparent. So from there then, I agreed with my sisters, this was back in October 2017, I agreed with them until, January. So of course, New Year’s eve night, strike of 12 - I jumped out of the closest.
LL: Amazing!
BH: Like Cinderella I changed!
LL: That's incredible Becky, that's incredible.
BH: So I was expecting a few to get a surprise or whatever but no most of them aren't a bit shocked.
All: Laughter
BH: It wasn't news to a lot of them. So then after hopping out of the closet I had seen me GP, before that - actually the month before that I had been to my counsellor - I go to another mental health group which is called GROW, which is, I was basically going for anxiety, not realising this is all where it stemmed from. So the second meeting I had with her she stopped me and said ‘Before you do anything I have to say something to you’, and I said, ‘Is everything ok?’ and she said ‘Yeah I just want to let you know before you even opened your mouth’ she said ‘that first day I knew the gender issue was going to come up’. And I just thought to myself Jesus I thought I was hiding it well!
Throughout my life I would have been dropping hints y'know buying girly clothes, or trying to grow my hair and still no one was getting the hint (All: Laughter). Even there lately, I had someone visit me room and I’ve a big huge framed picture of a fairy and they still didn't get the hint when they’d seen that! From there then, February, I was talking to my GP, he was really helpful and it turns out there was another patient, and it turns out they're a facilitator of another group I go to whose trans as well. So it's like the two of us were training our doctor how to treat trans people! So she got me on the road and I was saying what can I do I'm tired of waiting for this endocrinologist and the whole stuff, so I started getting laser therapy. Then I had the laser therapy done and I said what else can I do, so then I went off changing me names. And especially my younger sister who'd be the... well she's the youngest but she'd be the boss of the family, and she didn't want me to change my name, in case it was too early - afraid I might change my mind, to her I think she was afraid of losing something. So I got to a stage I said ‘Look I'm filling out forms, I'm in a different course, people know me as Becky but if I get another form that's official I have to use my old name.’ So then I went back to her and I said, I wrote her a message on Facebook and she said ‘OK I understand’. So then I changed me name, I went up the courthouse, the Four Courts, and that was a bit of a thing and straight away then I applied for my new birth cert then two weeks later applied for gender recognition and then I got on to TENI then and other people trying to figure out how do I get my new passport.
So the easiest way for getting the passport, for anyone that's stuck like me, when I was trying to get advice, you have to basically apply as a new person and slip in your old passport and make sure you enclose the original copy of your gender recognition cert because if you're like me I just enclosed a copy, but they were saying they wanted the original but I was afraid to send the original in case it'd be lost. And then the other thing that's come up it happened me last year, the last referendum we had - I can't remember what it was - I couldn't vote because my name wasn't changed on the registry. I thought your name was automatically changed on all government things. I'm trying to think what referendum (LL: Abortion? Blasphemy? All: Laughter). Abortion I think, I had to go and vote for that one and I arrived at the polling station and it was me old passport they looked at the old passport they looked at me and they said that's not you why are you giving me this. So like a lot of trans people then I had to come out again.
So I suppose one of the hardest ones to come out was at my gym. So when I had joined them I hadn't given them my new name, my name now, Rebecca, so I said what do I do. So I went in and didn't say anything to them, and then about 2 months later I came out to them when I had my name officially changed. I explained I didn't know what to do when I joined because my name wasn't officially changed. And then said OK, they'll change it but they still wanted me to use the male changing room. And so I had agreed because I just tried to make things easier, for other people I suppose, than myself. So it was around June or July, it got to the stage where I couldn't handle it any more. One night, I'll always remember, I got one man stopped me and asked me what am I doing there, really aggressively, and I just said to myself ‘keep walking, keep walking’ and then he stopped me again and I'd look around and the whole dressing room was looking. Or one night I was blow-drying my hair and, I was sorry I ever done it, I looked into the mirror and I could see all the heads from all around the dressing room just staring over at me. And another day, the toilet, I used to always get changed in the toilet, I wouldn't get changed with the rest - it's an open plan thing, and I could hear two lads talking 'There's a girl in the dressing room, did you notice that?' and I just carried on, I was happy to hear him saying it! But at the same time I was kind of getting nervous, so I went to management and I said it to them again and there was meetings going on for about 2 weeks, about 2 or 3 weeks, what were they going to do with me, at this stage I went down I gave them copies of my gender cert, I gave them copies of everything I had -any official documents just to let them know this is real like, this is me. So eventually they agreed, ‘you have men stopping you all the time but you don't see anyone stopping you in the women's’. So I had showed them... I watched a great show, I'd recommend to anyone, I didn't think I'd find it helpful, it's called I am Jazz it's about a younger teenager that’s transitioned fully now, and she wore a swimsuit and a little swim skirt. So I showed them the picture and I said look, I took a picture of myself in the mirror in it and I said ‘Look this is what I'll be wearing’. And they accepted it then on condition that I go in on a 3 month trial. So for those 3 months every time I'd see a worker coming out onto the floor area of the pool my heart'd be going like jaws I'd be thinking ‘This is it now I'm going to be kicked out. What am I going to do?’ So people used to say to me ‘Why don't you go somewhere else? Why don't you go to a different gym? There's one up the road.’ And at this stage I just said, ‘No’ I said ‘I can't’ (pause, emotional) 'why can't you?' 'I'm not doing this for me anymore. It's for ... [voice crack] Sorry...’It's for every other transgender person out there that comes after me.’ So after that then I started, I passed the 3 months trial and they allowed to let me use it. And on the first day they let me use it, I was starting a Beauty Therapy course in Kilkenny. Which has been amazing, it's something I always wanted to do, but I couldn't because there would have been questions asked, so it was easier to not do it, and now I'm able to do it. And everyone has just been so supportive and their friends and family. And of course the first thing that popped up was after the first week one of the tutors called me aside and ‘We need to talk to you for a minute.’ And I said ‘Yes you know you can talk to me about anything if it's to do with transitioning.’ And she said ‘It is actually, there's the problem that's coming up with the toilets.’ And I said ‘What's up with the toilets?' 'We want to know, what toilet, we want to give you a separate toilet'. I'd be using the teacher's female toilet. And I said ‘Why would I be using that? That's segregation.’ and she said to me ‘Which toilet have you been using?’ and I said ‘I’ve been using the ladies all along’ and she laughed and said that's fine.
LL: So was she trying to be supportive (BH: Oh she was) or was she trying to separate you?
BH: Oh she was being supportive, and like I met up with the principal because I had to see him and I said’ I believe there's a problem with the toilets’ and he apologised and he said ‘That was really my fault, it shouldn't have got out of hand like that,’ he said. ‘Really’ he said, ‘we should have called you in in the summer and ironed this out. But if you’re happy using that then we are too.’ Then I'm dyslexic as well, so they gave me a computer and all that business, so it's great.
LL: God Becky you're some woman wow! That's amazing! I think that example of your college shows, lots of times people are trying to be supportive but instead of asking someone what they need, they go and do what they think they need and instead it makes things worse for the person, whereas if they'd just asked you in the first place, ‘Hey Becky what toilets do you want to use?’, yknow there wouldn't have been an issue. I'm glad that it got resolved, and that they apologised as well.
BH: They've been really good like. Certain subjects would come up because I'm doing Beauty Therapy, one of them came up with waxing, with bikini waxing, Jesus what am I going to do here? So lucky enough I went to the tutor and said to her ‘Look I'm really worried about this bikini waxing.’ And it's done very discreetly and all and she said ‘Look I can do one of the girls’ and they were fine letting me work away doing whatever I needed to do, and I just said, at the moment I don't feel I can get it done meself. So they were happy with that. But next year is going to be the bigger challenge, I haven't had me operation yet and it's going to be Brazilian waxing and everything next year so it's going to be great fun next year!
All: Laughter
LL: How were your classmates when you came out to them?
BH: Yeah they were grand, the first day I had an appointment in the afternoon, and I came back the next day and one of me friends said ‘You'll be going mad everyone introduced themselves yesterday’ she said ‘I know how much that meant to you.’ I said yes, so I called one of the tutors aside after one of the classes and said it to her I said ‘I believe everyone was introduced, I really wanted to do it.’ She said ‘Do you really want to like, what do you want to talk about?’ I said just who I am like, my transition. So I came out to the class, gave them my story brief story, wrote a poem, of course I was crying during that and then said to everyone I wanted to get this out now, I feel like I'm the elephant in the room. And one of the girls just replied, ‘There was never an elephant in the room’ (pause, emotional). So yeah it just went really good and everyone has just been so welcoming and supportive of my journey.
LL: As they should be. But y’know there's still the experiences like the one you had in the gym to make it stand out when people are supportive. Thank you so much Becky.
BH: Thank you.
LL: And you gave some really helpful tips and insights for anyone that's at the start of their journey. And thank you for making a stand at your gym as well. I know not everybody is able to do that, but sometimes somebody has to. So it was really really brave of you. Thank you Becky.
And Jennifer, if you don't mind, you were telling me earlier, how when you first came out, you went over to Manchester?
JMG: Yeah I suppose. I went over to Manchester in Summer of 2013. So I started off...I suppose I came out very late, I kind of hugely underestimated it. I'd been a crossdresser for years, but I'd never had the courage to y'know go out in public. I think as time went on then the impulse, or the urge became too great, I had to go out, I had to know one way or another whether I wanted to live it. I went to Manchester, and there was dressing services there and part of that dressing service is that you get dressed and they do up the hair and the nails and all that stuff, but they would also go out with you y'know. There was a group in Manchester called Manchester Concord, and so when I had my makeover done and all that I got a taxi to the restaurant, and I remember coming out of the car and my knees were bumping together, it looked like I was drunk already even though I didn't have a drop! And there was these two girls waiting for me from the group, from Manchester Concord, and I had spaghetti Bolognese - which is never a good idea if you have a big long blonde wig on! I was still eating my dinner about 3 hours later! But they were fantastic. And that was the first inkling anyway, and that was such a liberating experience I think and it was and it wasn't, because I kind of knew then… it was such a shock to my system, because I thought I could contain it. I wasn't giving it the respect it deserved, I repressed it for so long, for so many years - but then it was open, as I said, the floodgates were open a bit then. And then when I went back...I should mention that I've worked in the Regional in Galway for 12 years and when I came back I had no idea what I was going to do so I sat down and the best plan I could come up with was, well look it, put on your female clothes, go into work.
Well actually I said I'd go into Galway town the first weekend, now when I say wearing clothes, my God! The clothes I bought, I bought these silicone implants I wanted to put in size 28 and I hit the wrong digit and it was size 38 so when they landed it was like two basketballs (All: Laughter) and I wore them out in Galway with a little tank top. My dress sense, well it's not great now but it was non-existent then! I don't know I probably looked like someone who was trying to be 15, a 15 year old girl. Yknow, in a 45 year old body. So people were doing a lot of staring, but the great thing was it answered a question very early on - I did actually feel very relaxed and comfortable. I said this feels right, this feels right.
And then of course there's the work part, I remember I walked into work and I had on a pair of women's jeans and a pair of ankle boots. And that was probably one of the most terrifying experiences of my life, because I run into over 100 people a day because I cover most areas of the hospital I go around collecting charts. That was, I'd say the first two years was just about going in and, it was about existing really. I had no idea how to handle it, they had no idea how to handle it, my manager took me in and said 'Emmm, are you feeling OK?' and I said 'Well I'm not sure'. There were all these rumours 'Are you gay? Are you having a mid-life crisis?' and all that. And I hadn't told them anything because there was no such thing as a dress sense as far as I knew in the hospital, and after a while I kind of said to them ‘I'm living as a woman now’ and they were saying ‘Right will you be coming in and wearing miniskirts and all that because we need to know what size, what you're going to be wearing.’ And I said ‘Well I don't think you can ask me that but don't worry it will be...it will be ...(LL: Work appropriate?) work appropriate yeah’. So they were like OK, but still they hadn't a notion.
So of course the first issue that came up was the toilet issue. So for about 3 or 4 weeks I was going around, I told my manager, who really, I think found the whole thing quite distasteful, she wasn't supportive whatsoever. In regards to the staff, yeah, that was - some people were ok, the best way is to say it was like an explosion within a department, some people weren't reacting well, some people were, some people weren't talking. Some people didn't know whether to approach me or not. And I suppose at the time TENI came and gave a few talks, which was very prevalent at the time - I'll come back to them. I suppose the hardest thing, of course, and the biggest problem I have and still currently have is the misgendering and mispronouning which goes on quite a bit.
LL: And Jennifer for anybody who doesn't know what misgendering and mispronouning is would you mind explaining that please?
JMG: Yeah so they would misgender me, so I live as a woman, so they would say 'He's coming up to collect those charts' and one of the worst ones is when I go up in the elevator and I hold the door and someone says 'Hold the door there for me buddy' or 'Thank you sir' or stuff like that. Now I wouldn't say it to the patients or stuff like that because they're not trained, but I suppose the worrying part is that it's mainly staff that's doing it. And I suppose going back to my own area, the staff has changed in the last 5 or 6 years, so it's all new staff, they're quite up to date. But there hasn't been any really training in the last 2, 2 and a half years, so that sort of left me in no man’s land.
TENI's last 5, 6 talks have all been cancelled so that sort of left me in no-man's land with the mispronouning. It is psychologically damaging, because it was happening at such a rate. So I made a record, I think it happened 15 times in one month. And some days it can happen 4 or 5 times, or once or twice. And people react 3 different ways I found, so if people misgender you, they'll automatically change the subject. So if I say Oh you misgendered me there', 'Oh and we'll see you again tomorrow' or they'll apologise, say ‘Oh I'm sorry about that’, and I'll say ‘OK that's fine’ or they don't take it well at all from being corrected. They can get quite, they can be a bit bitchy about it or they can be very negative about it then and the next time around they won't talk.
So I went to my managers and I said ‘Yknow this is a big problem, we need to get proper training and we need to TENI in.’ I said ‘What's my options?’ And they basically said the only option open to you is to take a grievance against these people. And I said ‘I'm not taking a grievance against staff because of lack of training’. And I think the way the structure is set up within the HSE is that there's no accountability, nobody makes any plans for anything that's happening so in their case, so of course, I tried the union, and they said to me, that they were too busy with the housing crisis thing and they said ‘We'd love to help you but we can't.’ So I thought that could be an avenue that could trickle down to all their members, but that became a dead end, he was gonna help me that came to nothing. So I think I got to a stage in there, I remember standing in a little storage room one day and I said stop now, stop now, that's enough. I was still amazed that there was nothing coming, like 'I'll look into that' or 'How'd you get on?' I locked horns with the head of HR because she said she helped to write the policy, so I got quite animated one day after being misgendered and I said ‘A policy is only as good’ I said, ‘It's only words on a paper unless they're being enforced.’ And she said 'Well sure look it if you've corrected people, what's the problem? The next time around they won't do it and even if they do get training they might still do it.’ And I said ‘I can't believe this, it's not up to me to keep correcting them - do you realise how traumatising that is for me’, so of course then they said ‘We’ll get on to TENI’ and that.
And I did say I'd come back to them (TENI) I mean, I've dealings with TENI over a period of 2, 2 and a half years and unfortunately, and they do a lot of good work , and they're an important organisation but personally I haven't had good experiences with them. So then that's when I stopped, OK that's when I said you're at point zero in here - I've got nowhere with the union, nowhere with HR, got nowhere with TENI, so yknow that's one of the reasons I'm here as well yknow, obviously we're here for people of our own age but I felt like, I'm trying to hold the tide back with a toothpick it's open season in that place, and of course they're apologetic, or those 3 ways that they reply, but I'm so incredibly disappointed in the external lack of support I've had. I got to a stage where I thought I'm going to have a breakdown here, because I wasn't coping well and I was actually reacting, I wouldn't say hostile, but I was getting quite animated, and if the situation was left there could have been a row ensuing and this was going on then, this was going on I thought I'm not going to last here much longer if I don't put something in place, I need to look after myself.
Of course, I’ve always been a big - I love spirituality, I love Abraham Hicks, Louise Hay, yknow, so I thought get back to the core, get back to the basics, you want to be the best woman that you can. So from listening to all those talks, I drew back, so if people misgendered me or mispronouned me I thought OK it's happened but you’ve got to react - you have to make it yourself now, so I'm trying to be less reactionary. But at the same time I'm trying to cope with the massive disappointment of the lack of support now, so that's where I'm at with the moment I'm working very hard on that. And most days, yknow it's good but, you can only bend so far to your principals, as I said earlier I don't want to leave without at least having tried to change things in there yknow, but we need to get something sorted out in there, and so yeah hopefully the sooner the better yknow.
LL: Absolutely. And before we finish up, you mentioned earlier about kinds of difficulties that you've had to overcome, or are still trying to overcome in your case Jennifer, how do you mind yourselves? What are your self-care things? How do you build up your resilience and keep going?
JMG: I do like listening to Abraham Hicks, yknow positivity talks so, as I said I had to come up with a plan a few weeks ago and I thought, can I stay working in here? So I went home and I put a plan together so I'd listen to one in the morning, a positivity talk, yknow -changing your life, changing your outlook, changing your reactions, how you react to people. Same thing last thing at night, put one on. In the meantime do the yoga twice a week, reading books, doing the Toastmasters, so I looked at all the things that I enjoy doing and just generally be a nice person. I thought just because this happened, it isn't your life, I thought don't get consumed by it because at the end of the day it's only happening in one specific area, yknow. So I was able to compartmentalise it in a way, and that's certainly helping yknow. I like to think of myself as a sociable person. I joined that - there's so many social groups in Galway my God! - you wouldn't be able to work if you had to go to them all (laughs). I think it's brilliant in this day and age, with the internet tool, that side of it's so wonderful just yesterday I went to the courage festival in Galway, there's a festival on every week in Galway, and being a book reader I did go to a book reading yesterday which was brilliant and yknow it's great to meet people, likeminded people who are into reading books as well so I suppose my horizons have broadened.
I don't want to go back to it but I suppose the work I'm doing in the hospital is half clerical which is predominantly female and the other half is still male, and that's the part I've sort of moved on mentally from the male part but then when I go in and I'm doing it, it doesn't feel right to me. So as part of my growth and things to help me I'm trying to obviously retrain maybe in a clerical position. So I was hired as a male porter, so I'm trying to change that now by going we have to look at the whole thing of transgender people, what's appropriate when you're so far down the line transitioned, we need to look into that in the workplace as well that doesn't seem to have been touched either unfortunately. And that leaves you in no man's land really, because you want these changes to be implanted but really in my case I'm just doing them myself on a day to day basis, no one's come near me no one's asked me, and when I'm questioned about it I have to stand my ground. But yeah a lot of those things I just said, they helped me. I like humour and comedy, it's a big help, so I do watch a lot of funny things. I watched Outnumbered there, yknow that British show, about the couple with young kids which is great ‘cause the kids are so funny. For me that's great too. And Becky did mention the wellness course earlier, it's a brilliant course because they ran them in the hospital I think similar to the ones you did, and I'm sorry I didn't go on it because it was probably a different perspective than that one but they're hugely helpful, one of the good things the HSE run. And I'd just like to say there are a lot of good people working in the hospital. But again it's the lack of training and stuff like that that's letting us down. But yes it's those other things I find helpful. And always having a good outlook, a positive outlook, and I say glass half full that's my motto.
LL: Thank you so much. That's a really holistic and healthy approach. and full because it looks like you're working on your self-care in all areas of your life, and not just in one or two. You're very good humoured and funny, but also I think it's great that both of you are - and I know not everybody is in a position to do this or is that kind of person - but you're taking your experiences where you see something is missing and you're using them to make changes, which I think don't feel good at the time but afterwards when you've made that achievement, when you've changed things for the better for other people, I think it's incredible. Thank you. Becky, what were you going to say? Oh you've a list I see!
All: Laughter.
BH: I was trying to write them down so I could remember, that helps me in my transition. It'd be family, mainly my nieces and nephews. In times I'd be down and I'd go and visit them and they just cheer me back up they're a tonic. And also, into exercise mainly the gym I go swimming every day and there'd be also the cinema. I go once a week with a friend for relief from stress and anxiety from the exams so that helps to relieve that. And also by joining the protests in Dublin, fighting for trans rights and the This Is Me campaign, which I find fantastic, especially now they've finally got a confirmed meeting with our health minister at long last, long overdue. And other things that would help me, at the start, well I'm still in the early stages of transitioning, was the programme I am Jazz I presume you'll find it on Youtube, the other one the controversial one - Caitlyn Jenner's show, I am Cait, but for me in that show it wasn't Cait herself it was the other trans women on it that were asking her questions or like they were informing her about changing her passport and stuff and that's one again I thought oh I never thought of passports, and about when you're getting rid of your male clothes to your female clothes, and like me I woulda had a cry as you're doing it. Because part of the process is the other person done nothing wrong, but it's your time now. This is who you are.
LL: That's beautiful Becky, that's really beautiful. Thank you so much.
BH: Watching other shows that might appear on the telly, Translife I think was the name of it, and you had one on Channel 4 there lately, The Making of Me - when you're watching the stories, and you can relate it really helps you, it inspires you just to keep going on the journey.
LL: Thank you so much and the very last thing I want to ask you. If there's anyone listening who’s not out or who is at the early stages of coming out or transitioning what would you tell them, or what would you look back and tell yourself at that stage?
JMG: Well, em the first thing I would say is don't be too hard on yourself, you'll make loads of mistakes, but you'll also do a lot of right things. As you said, half the enjoyment is learning from the mistakes - there's so many things to look forward to. Like I know, the people who are out there and they're vulnerable, that's how we met, I think if you have the tiniest bit of courage, do try and meet up with other people - there is nice people out there you know. Never give up, remember this, there's other people going through things as well, but you're not on your own that's all I will say we're all fighting the fight on some front somewhere or another. At the end of the day we'll all try to get behind each other to help each other if we can a bit.
LL: Becky do you have anything you want to say?
BH: Yeah, just there is light at the end of this tunnel, as hard as it seems. And yeah just you will get a number of times on the journey - it's a rollercoaster of emotions, mostly positive. Like I've never had so many friends. I've never done so many things. I never thought I would've been sitting here, and things that you think are impossible - they can come true.
OUTRO: The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line's Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy. And we would like to thank Becky and Jennifer for speaking to us for this episode. You can find more information about Inclusion and upcoming meet ups on their Facebook page. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community. If you've been affected by anything in this podcast you can reach us on 018729911, or contact us on our online chat service on www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Dublin Lesbian Line is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions and relies on any support you can provide us. Whether it's 2 euro or 100 euro it makes a huge difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.