Our 6th episode of Women STAR features Niamh Kearney, a DLL wellness course participant. Niamh spoke to Laura Louise about her struggles with addiction, internalised homophobia, and the continuous work she does to improve her mental health.
You can listen to the podcast on Spotify, itunes, Acast, and Soundcloud and you can listen here now:
You can listen to the podcast on Spotify, itunes, Acast, and Soundcloud and you can listen here now:
Episode Transcription
Intro: Welcome back to women STAR Dublin lesbian line’s new podcast created to showcase the stories within the LGBTQAI community, specifically the stories of women STAR, which includes queer, nonbinary and transgender people. We want you to feel included whatever way you present yourself to the world so if you have a story you want to tell get in touch with us at www.dublinlesbianline.ie. Today’s guest is former DLL wellness course participant, NK Kearney and she spoke to LLC about her struggles with addiction, internalised homophobia, and the continuous work she does to improve her mental health, and we started by asking her about coming out in her late 30’s and about how she first came in contact with Dublin Lesbian Line.
Niamh Kearney: So, I met yourself by taking part in the Women's Wellness Course in Outhouse
earlier this year, about a week before Covid lockdown came we finished up thankfully.
Yeah, and I suppose I had come out only a couple of years previous to that, and I turned 40
this year, which was a big step ... a big...
Laura Louise Condell: Momentous birthday?
NK: Yeah, a big change in your life.
LLC: Milestone?
NK: Yeah, I had, I just had ‐‐ I suppose I had, I came out a lot later ‐‐ in my opinion I
came out later than a lot of people do, but realistically now, having become part of the
LGBT community I realise that it's actually not the case, that there's a lot of people who
have come out a lot later than me. Even recently I spoke to a lovely lady at a nice social
event in the War Memorial Garden, I was talking to this lovely lady who came out in her
late 50s after being married for years with two grown‐up children. She had an amazing
story. And it was just great to be able to sit there and swap our experiences of how I thought
37 was late to come out, and this woman was in her 50s. So, I suppose everyone has their
own journey and everyone has their own time will come and mine just was I suppose a bit
later.
I think since we did the soapbox sessions, I reflected a little bit on probably grieving not
coming out till later in my 30s, kind of, now that I've started to experience LGBT life and
the community, realising the beautiful amazing people that I've met and kind of, at moments
grieving that I missed out on that for so many years and I spent so many years in a dark,
dark place with depression and anxiety and addiction problems. Where now, in the space of
like such a small space of time, I've had such a change in my life that I just feel, I know who
I am at last. I love who I am at last, which is an unbelievable feeling to have, when you go
through years and years of self‐hatred and self‐sabotage and just abusing yourself, but with
alcohol, drugs, food, anything that will change how you feel.
I've just had these moments where I felt oh, I wish, I wish ‐‐ and I have to kind of remind
myself that's just how it is for me. And I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't gone
through all those things that I did go through. So, I kind of recognise it for what it is and say
well look, I'm only 40, I'm so young!
LLC: Absolutely.
NK: Yeah, and I think turning 40 as well has just really helped me to really not care
what people think about me. I kind of got that in my mid 30s and coming up to around the time when I decided to come out, in my experience coming out for a second time, which we
had talked about in the soapbox sessions, but yeah, just that feeling of what other people
think does not matter to me. Other people are too busy with their own lives anyway,
thinking about themselves to have to think about me.
LLC: I love that. Five minutes in I'm getting emotional! I completely hear
what you're saying about that, that grieving. I know a lot of people go through that, no
matter what age they come out at. I know people that come out at 23 and they are like I've
come out too late because I missed the college experience. Or, you know, people that come
out as you said in their 50s and 40s. I think what you said there about, that's how it is for
me. But also, when I hear people's journeys and their stories, maybe if they had been out
earlier. Like you're ready to embrace the community now and all of the richness and colour
that it has to offer. But maybe before if you were still struggling with the things that you
struggled with before, maybe you might not have had the same experience.
I know you can't compare and you can drive yourself mad with things like "what ifs" but I
think that's a really great attitude to have. But I think it's also okay to allow yourself to have
that grief and to picture what would the NK aged 25 have been like on the scene? Or
what would, you know, NK celebrating her 30th been like? I think it's definitely okay to
have that imagining of what would that have been like, but to also know that it's not
stopping you now.
NK: No. Not at all, it's making me throw myself into things that I wouldn't have done
before. You know, signing up for meeting up with people that I don't know and doing
activities with them, that I would never have taken part in. You know, even recently I went
on an adventure weekend in Waterford with an LGBT group and it was absolutely brilliant, I
was rock climbing and kayaking, absolutely unbelievable. Oh, cycled the green way as well
in Waterford, got myself a bike. Haven't had a bike since I was about nine. Joined a casual
kind of fun cycling group, again another women's, gay women's group that just meet up for
fun and do, like yesterday we did a 30k cycle.
LLC: Wow!
NK: Nothing too big, and even yesterday we were talking about what if we did 100k
cycle and we trained for it, you know? So, kind of just putting myself out there to get
involved I suppose with other women in the community. New friends. Like lots of new
friendships, and doing things that I just never thought were for me. It was okay for other
people to do them, or as I used to say, it was okay for other people to be gay, but it wasn't
okay for me to be gay.
I kind of, looking at my life, I kind of see that I saw that in lots of other areas, not just
sexuality. You mentioned college there, I barely even did my Leaving Cert, and God bless
my poor parents sent me to one of these educational colleges that were like thousands of
euro, to try and see if, you know, to make me go. But at that point I was already in trouble
with drink and drugs, and had massive mental health problems.
But this year I just started, three weeks ago I started back in college. I never got to go to
college.
LLC: That's incredible.
NK: So, I had gone and do other diplomas in different courses over the years, but I
never actually went and got a degree. So, it's kind of been a goal of mine, okay this is
something I wanted to do. So, I signed up and I started my level 8.
LLC: Congratulations.
NK: Yeah, it's really exciting.
LLC: That is definitely one thing I've noticed that people who come out, what
they feel later, especially for people that come out in their kind of 40s, 50s, it can often be a
catalyst for, you know, it's like for, if you've held something in for so long or you haven't
been able to go for what you want for so long. That when you finally come out it's like
you're emerging and get to be all the other parts of yourself that maybe you haven't had a
chance to yet. I think that's, that makes me feel that maybe 40s or 37 is the perfect age for
you to come out.
NK: Yeah for me, perfect.
LLC: Propelling yourself on a 30k cycle is pretty impressive. Aiming for ‐‐ that sounds really impressive to me because I can't cycle at all. So even someone that just gets on a bike and socialises at the same time.
NK: Yeah, such a nice way to hangout, and you know, with a lovely group of women
who are in the same position that they just want to widen their circle of friends it's really
nice
LLC: I was here, it's such a lovely way and I was about to say it sounds terrifying! (laughs)
NK: Coffee and cake halfway kind of makes it nice, and the views.
LLC: And you mentioned there, you know, struggles that you've had with your mental health and addiction. For people, anyone that wasn't at the soapbox session, would you be okay to go into a little bit more about your background in that if you're comfortable to?
NK: Yes, absolutely. So, growing up I would have been very sensitive, or as my
mother used to say, super sensitive. We talked about this in the soapbox sessions. I
mentioned as a child watching myself cry in the mirror and you had said to me afterwards,
that you had laughed with your sister, because you could relate to someone in your family
doing similar.
LLC: It completely warmed my heart, I'm just picturing that child, I hope I can
say it, Cara, sorry! My sister, my sister was the same. And all those feelings, yeah.
NK: That little girl that now I can actually look back on that little girl, little NK and
think God I'd love to give her a hug now. Where for years I beat myself up, for being too
sensitive. Where now actually I kind of have changed. I used to see being sensitive as a
negative, where now I actually see it as a positive.
I will go out of my way to help someone if I can. Truly, genuinely will. I probably will put
myself in a worse position at times because I can be a little bit too much of a fixer, or a
people pleaser. But I really do try my best if I can help someone, I will help them. And I
think that that just comes with super sensitivity. That I'm very empathic, I feel other
people's pain at times. And I just want to help them. You know?
So, I've kind of changed my thinking around that. I suppose that's a big part of being in
recovery, so back to, sorry, what you said to me was about my experience with addiction
and my mental health problems.
So yeah, growing up I was a very sensitive child. And I think I was probably around, it was
around that time that we moved from one area in Dublin to another, and I definitely think
that my sexuality was beginning to come out in me then. I didn't know this obviously at the
time, but when I look back on memories and I reflect on situations or people, and I can
actually, I just have these thoughts, these clear thoughts of oh yeah, that would make sense
as to, I was starting to realise that's how I felt towards women.
But we moved to this new area and suddenly I was out of this really comfortable place that I
lived in, I was very happy in my school and I suddenly was in a school where I was way
behind, I didn't have any friends, I spoke very, I had a bit of a howya accent as they would
say, compared to where we lived. Like I'm not a howya, but I would have been picked on
for being different.
I dressed differently, like these little small simple things that really do matter to kids. They
were all wearing Doc Martens and I was wearing LA Gear with lights and my tongues up
and silky track suits, and I just didn't fit in. But because I was that super sensitive little kid,
I couldn't cope with it, just don't cope with it.
So, the sexuality thing was just way too much to have to deal with as well. So that was
being pushed down and there was no way that was coming out. And then when I was
probably 13, I think was the first time I drank, and I somehow managed to move to this
nicer, posher area, but I was like a magnet to the people who had behaviour problems or
who had probably self-esteem problems or family problems.
So, I ended up hanging out with people that were, like me, that drank and ended up doing
drugs in their teenage years. Wasn't interested in school. I used to see it as I was such a bad
teenager and such a bad person and such a bad kid. But I now know that I wasn't bad. I just
was really confused and I was just lost. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to
express my you felt, I didn't know how to deal with it, so that was how I managed.
I remember being a teenager though and my dad saying when I was about 17, telling me I
was an alcoholic and I was absolutely pissed at the time and I think I had been standing on a
bridge threatening to jump off, which like, drunken behaviour and suicidal thoughts would
have always come in when I got drink or drugs into me. My poor dad, God bless him,
coming to collect me and throw me in the back of his car, taking me off a bridge and
bringing me home and saying you're 17 and you're an alcoholic! And I laughed at him
thinking he's pathetic like, how am I an alcoholic, I'm 17 and I'm a girl! Like as if being a
girl means you can't be an alcoholic. And I don't think, it probably didn't really register with
me at the time, but a couple of years later when I ended up going in for treatment, when I
was 25 I ended up as an inpatient in St. Patrick's Hospital, and I do recall that memory when
I had a conversation, I think one of the first conversations I had with my therapist in there
and him saying to me, how does it feel to be 25, an alcoholic and a drug addict?
I felt like telling him where to go.
LLC: I can imagine.
NK: But also, I didn't really believe him. You know? I kind of thought, I'm not, how
could I be? I still saw it as; I just had this stereotypical understanding of what I thought an
addict and an alcoholic was. I just didn't think that I fitted into the picture.
LLC: I think that's still very prevalent now, specially the female and young
thing. I don't know, we somehow have this image, even though so much more education has
come out, about a man on the street with the brown paper bag or just someone much older
anyway.
NK: Yeah, and even though I was always one of these people who on the outside
everything looked great, I wouldn't go out without my hair perfected and my makeup done,
high heels, you know, dressed up as if, you think I was probably going to the shops. I
wouldn't let anyone see me look that there might have been something wrong, but inside I
was dying. I absolutely hated myself, I hated how I couldn't control my drinking, I hated
that I didn't want to go out unless I could get drugs. And then I hated myself when I was
sober. So, it was kind of this vicious circle of how am I going to get out of this.
And part of me didn't want to get out of it either, because I knew that if I stopped, I was
going to have to continue with it and then there was no going back. If that makes sense?
LLC: It makes perfect sense; I completely get you. Because it's really scary
then I imagine, especially when you've lived that way since you were 13, you don't know
anything else. All those formative years when you've learned socialising and that kind of
thing, it sounds like they were all accompanied by drink and drugs, so you've got to learn not
just how to live without alcohol and drugs, but also how to socialise and do all those ‐‐ how
to be as an adult?
NK: Yeah, I think probably one of the scarier things was when I, so when I left that
hospital I was told you need to go to AA, that's the only place for you to go and I'm so
grateful that I did go, and I made such brilliant friends over the years. I've gone to a few
different 12 step programmes, not just AA. I've gone to Coda, which is like a 12 step
programme for relationships for trying to have healthy relationships for people who are
codependent, and even now all these years later, my recovery, even though I mightn't go to
say 12 step meetings, everything that I've learned from those is what I practice to keep
myself sober and to keep myself well.
And even I remember a couple of years ago when I was living up north and I did a diploma
in counselling, therapeutic counselling. And I remember thinking this is all exactly what's
out of the big book of AA! It was just leave out the God word and yeah, it was all, just like a
different version of it as such.
LLC: Which is positive because it means that, it sounds like it's quite
professional then you know? And when you, if you don't mind me asking, when you were
leaving St. Pat's and they were saying you've got to go to AA, by then had you accepted
okay I have a problem, I need to do something about this or were you still thinking I don't
know?
NK: No! I was thinking no, I'm going to ‐ I had heard this thing about get to three
months sober. So, my plan was I will do that and once I get to three months sober that will
prove I'm not an alcoholic and then I can learn to drink again. So, I did that exactly. I got
sober for exactly three months and on that day I was in Canada, I said okay, not an
alcoholic, let's go drinking, and I'm missing maybe six hours of that night because I started
off with just having a beer and then that led to another to another, to another and I'm not
really sure then where the rest of the night went.
I went on that holiday with a boyfriend who had an engagement ring with him and ended up
coming back single without the engagement ring, which was an absolute blessing in disguise
because ...
LLC: The gods!
NK: Yeah, thank you.
LLC: Maybe didn't feel like it at the time though, or did it?
NK: I don't know what I felt like. I think I just, I don't think it was ‐‐ when I look
back on my relationships, I've done a lot of research into codependency, because I would see
a lot of traits in me that are, a lot of addicts would have, or even people who are in a family
with other addicts that they have these codependency traits. Like the people pleasing and
the fixing.
When I look at the relationships that I had, it wasn't that actual person, it was, they were my
security. You know I would have, if you lined all my exes up in a row actually you just
could not figure out that I would have went out with these people. It's like nothing, no one
has anything in common or there's no traits. But I would just find something in that person
they would be right, I'm safe if I'm with this person for the moment and I will just, I will stay
with them and I won't be on my own. Because if I'm on my own then I'd have to deal with
the reality of what was actually going on in my head.
LLC: And were you aware of that or was that something you only realised later on?
NK: No, I had no idea.
LLC: Because you are incredibly ‐‐ I was going to say you sound incredibly
self-aware, but you are incredibly self-aware. You put the work in. Which I know I said it
to you before, you have put the work in!
NK: I had to idea! I have gone to lots of therapists, and I've loved it. I have loved it.
I've gone to therapists when I have been in dire straits and I will be in a situation and I just
won't be able to figure it out by myself. And I've gone to, I've tried lots of holistic therapies
as well. I kind of just see it as self-care. You know, I look after ‐‐ we all look after our
physical health as best that we can, and I think for me my mental health, I have to keep on
top of it, I have to ‐ I have like, I have my own list of things that I know this is what works
for me. If I do these certain things I will stay well. If I don't, I will fall back into that place
of isolating, not getting enjoyment out of the things that I normally would, over eating.
So, I would because we have to eat, I would, you know we can't not eat.
LLC: Not like alcohol where you can stop drinking.
NK: Yeah, you can stop drinking, you can stop taking drugs.
LLC: Mm‐hmm.
NK: You can't stop eating. So that was something that hadn't really been a problem for
me before, but then it became in recovery from alcoholism, that became a new problem to
deal with.
LLC: Yes.
NK: But I think I'm way more aware now, where I'll catch it.
LLC: Yes.
NK: And I'll see it before it gets too far, thankfully.
LLC: I think that's the thing, correct me if you don't feel the same way. I think
sometimes when people think of the word recovery, not just with addiction, but with mental
health as well, it's kind of like recovered. Like it has a point where then it's done, you're
recovered.
NK: Bing you're fixed!
LLC: But I really think of it as an on‐going maintenance thing and learning
what's going to work for you and then not that you won't ever feel bad again, but that you'll
be able to recognise things that you'll have the self-awareness and then the tools to cope with
what comes up. And sometimes struggle to cope as well, that's also part of it. I don't think
it means somebody isn't still recovering, you know? I think sometimes with the word
recovery it can sound very like it's a full stop and then you're done and that it's okay to have,
not okay, it's great, it's actually brilliant to have all those self-care things.
I love your approach to therapy as well and trying holistic things. It sounds like you've
done, you know from being in hospital, to holistic, to AA, to therapist there's been a really
broad range. I love that I'm really ‐‐ you know this from me from the wellness course, all
about that with mental health. Like throw everything at it and see what sticks. There's no
one size fits all. Just pick, just feel what's going to work for you because it's not going to be
the same for ...
NK: No, that might not work for you and so on, and I love that I suppose.
LLC: Me too. I think it's more freeing than sometimes mental health things
can feel very prescriptive and restrictive, like I have to meditate, I have to do this, I have to
do this. But actually, it's finding what works maybe? Could you please tell us about any
personal experience you have with internalised homophobia and what is that also if you're
able to talk about that please?
NK: Okay, so yeah, internalised homophobia. I did not know there was such a thing, I
didn't know what it was until we sat in this room, we're in now, the red room in outhouse,
and it came up in the wellness group for the women's programme. And I had this moment
like a light bulb went off and I realised that I suffered with internalised homophobia.
I had no idea. But when I actually did a little bit of research into it, I learned that I would
have grown up in a homophobic house, and society. I was born in 1980, so my memory of,
my understanding of gay people when I was saying in the 90s, early teenager, was that gay
people were bad, wrong and immoral. That if you were gay you were dirty, you were going
to get AIDS, you were going to get HIV. Sky News I think was only a couple of years old
and suddenly we had 24-hour news, and they just concentrated on AIDS and these people,
like "these people" like as if we're another type of human, we're not like normal humans.
LLC: These mutants. (laughs)
NK: Yeah. You're going to die. I remember just thinking the words, you know, queer
‐‐ now I have started to use that word now and I'm beginning to love it. But I have to put
effort into it, because when I was growing up "queer" was a negative term and I grew up
with hearing, like the famous queers, the wonderful ones, like Freddie Mercury, Elton John,
the queers, but not in a good way.
So, I just had this, this built in belief that I learned from other people, that I learned from the
media, not just my family, that, you know, it wasn't okay to be gay. And then I kind of
realised that that just led me down a road to more self-hatred, more self-sabotage,
depression, anxiety, never feeling good enough, risky behaviours, compulsive behaviours,
obsessive behaviours, under achieving, codependency, people pleasing, attempts to alter my
own sexuality.
So, knowing I was gay but making a conscious decision I am going to turn this off and I am
going to be normal like everyone else and actually practising that for years. Sometimes I
think maybe I should have been an actress! I spent years pretending. Like years and years
pretending that, you know, putting on this front that I was actually okay with how my life
was. Where deep down I wasn't, I was so, so miserable with it. And I just didn't know that
within me was this, I had learned this ... I'm not sure if hatred is the right word? I definitely
had self-hatred, and I definitely abused myself because of that hatred. But I had this belief
that it wasn't okay to be gay and that you weren't as good as, or you weren't enough
compared to non-gay people. Which is, I just, I remember just thinking oh wow, this is
something I just didn't know that was there. And it was great, because then I could actually
deal with it and realise, you know, I could then actually sit down with my family and have
conversations.
LLC: Oh wow.
NK: And talk about it. And in my soapbox session I talked about, I had come out in my
late 20s to a family member and it was taken really badly and I was in a relationship with a
girl at the time that I was mad about her and I was having a great time, and I came out and it
was taken really badly and I was basically told that I was disgusting and that I was a
disappointment and that there was something wrong with me. And I just had such a, I had
no sense of self and I didn't have enough courage within me to actually just stand up and say
well that's who I am and that's how it's going to be. I did what a lot of people do, I ended the
relationship and I got back in the closet and I got myself into a long-term relationship with a
man, that I spent years miserable in. Absolutely miserable in, and I'd say he must have been
miserable too, because how could you be with someone who's depressed, anxious and
miserable all the time? How could you be happy?
I think it was two unhappy, unwell people, who ended up together. But yeah that's what, for
me coming out and being rejected did for me. So, it gave me another ten years in the closet.
LLC: Wow.
NK: Yeah.
LLC: It's really, as you said so many important things there. First about the,
how internalised homophobia is made in a person, because you know, the messages that we
get, especially when we're young, that's what forms our opinions and not just our opinions,
but our deep core beliefs. And then how that can resonate with someone without, to the
extent where a person can become really unwell and have all these other experiences
because of what these negative messages about our identities, that are around us, what that
does to a person. I think about parents a lot and, you know a parent that would say, I wish,
you know, just hide it, just go back in the closet. I think maybe people don't process the
amount, the impact that had, it's not just that one part of your life. For a person that, it can
take over their entire life and impact everything. And for decades. Decades too.
I think it shows, you said you didn't have enough courage. I think it shows incredible
courage actually to come out not once but twice, and it's not ‐‐ I mean it makes perfect
sense that after all the messages you had growing up, and specially the first 13 years of your
life was illegal to be gay in Ireland anyway. And any of the queers, the wonderful queers
that were represented, not in a good way, but were also male it sounds like, so not seeing
yourself and definitely not seeing yourself in a positive light, like any women.
That of course then when someone says those things to you, that you're disgusting, it just
reinforces that. It's like oh yeah, you're right. Then it's not to do with courage, the courage
is that you then did come out at 37 and do all the incredible ‐‐ now you're sitting here! I
think that's pretty remarkable. I wouldn't say there's a lack of courage there Niamh!
NK: I suppose yeah, I couldn't think of one positive role model, gay role model
growing up. Where nowadays there's just, there's so many, and I had a pretty large group of
friends and no one was openly gay. As far as I'm aware I'm the only gay, which I find a
little bit strange. Am I really the only gay? Is there someone in the closet maybe? I don't
know. I don't care, God I hope for their, if there is, that they would find the courage to come
out. But I had a pretty large circle of friends and it's only, again looking back and going oh
that's a bit strange isn't it, that there were so many of us.
I do remember acquaintances while growing up, say the odd person in school and they, you
know a boy, a teenaged boy who was gay, who got a terrible time, who was bullied, who
was picked on, it just ‐‐ there was just nothing that I can remember that was positive.
LLC: How would that encourage anyone to come out?
NK: Yeah.
LLC: And then ... how did you get to this point then? What made you come
out in the end?
NK: So, it would have been pain, yeah. Loss and pain. So, my dad died in 2017 and I
think I just realised, you know my dad was only 68 when he died and he loved his life and
he was so happy. And we loved him so much. And I remember thinking I'm 37, I'm
miserable. If I actually ‐‐ if someone was to say you're going it die now, it wouldn't
actually have bothered me, which when I think about it is really sad.
I would have suffered with suicidal thoughts for years, and my understanding of it now is
completely different. If I was told tomorrow that I was going to die, I would be so, so
traumatised because I love my life now. But back then I didn't. I just didn't see any worth in
my life and it was just, I just kind of got through. I put on a brave face and I just got
through. I did obviously have moments where I was happy. But I had a lot of dark times.
And I just think, dad had died, there was other personal things that had happened and gone
on. I just thought I can't live like this anymore. I'm just going to have to face up to this and
so I left that long term relationship that I was in and I ‐‐ it's so funny, I don't do things in
halves like.
I left in a snowstorm. I packed up my car, didn't tell anyone. Left the UK, came, arrived on
my mother's doorstep with all my bags and I'm like hey, can I move in here? I had no job, I
had no home, I had ‐‐ I literally had no money. And my car, I had to give back because it
wasn't in my name. So, I had nothing. I was back in my bedroom in my mam's house. I
remember thinking it can't get any worse than this. You have lost everything. Everything
material, I still had all the people around me and I do remember saying to my mam, you
know what, if I have done live in a bedsit on my own, I don't care. If I'm happy that's all
that matters.
And now it's only been a couple of years and things have changed totally. I have my own
apartment, I have a job, I'm back in college, you know, I've managed to get myself back on
my feet by myself. Well, with the help of, I have a very, very good family that are very
supportive. But it just shows me. I remember that week of being back in my mam's and in
my bedroom going how did I end up here? You know? And going, I remember I started
seeing a psychologist to try and help me to get through that period, and yeah it did, it was a
lot of hard work, but it was worth it. Yeah, and things have turned around.
LLC: You turned things around. You are definitely ‐‐ you have been
absolutely instrumental in where you are now, I don't think it's been, you know, chance and
luck! I think you put huge effort in.
So, we always like to finish on something, what would you say to people that are listening
that maybe either, whatever message you want to give, either to do with people who feel like
they've left it too late to come out? Or maybe someone who's struggling with substance
dependency or eating difficulties or maybe someone who's struggling with suicidal ideation.
Do you have anything you'd like to say to anybody? That's a big one I know!
NK: Yeah, I was looking at my bookshelf before I came out, and I was looking at some
of the books that I have over the years, that have helped me. And the 12 step programme I
find really helpful, but Russell Brand has a book called Recovery, and he has rewritten the
12 steps in it, and they're brilliant and they're so simple and he's taken out God. And for
people, it's just I think the 12 step programme is written in the 1930s, so he has rewritten the
steps and has rewritten the programme that people can actually understand and relate to. So,
I would say to anyone that's thinking I'm in trouble with drink and drugs or food, but I don't
want to go to one of those places, I'd say have a quick look at his book. Even read his steps.
Each chapter has sections in it of how you can help yourself and so on, so that is really
useful.
For things when it comes to say codependency and people pleasing and not looking after
yourself properly, there's an author called Melody Beattie, and she has a book called The
Language of Letting Go, which is like daily reflections for people. And I have the app on
my phone and I have the book, and the book no longer has a cover because I've used it so
much, it's just highlighted and all dog's ears and everything. But every day is a different
little reading, like probably a two minute reading, but it will always be something that you
can relate to in life and I find that really helpful.
LLC: Brilliant.
NK: She also has a book called Codependent No More which helps people, how to
stop controlling other people and start looking after yourself.
LLC: Oh brilliant.
NK: With coming out as gay, I think for me my biggest problem was that I didn't have
a strong sense of self. And that was something that I found through counselling and
therapy. And a lot of hard work, was actually build a sense of self. I wish I had a magic
solution to say here, 1, 2, 3, you do this and then it's there. But for me that was a big part of
it.
A few things I'll say though, after coming out, it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to
be. I had magnified it, so I thought it was going to be a lot worse. People might have felt
uncomfortable for a small amount of time, but very quickly they got used to it. Even my
mother, like my mother does talk about now, oh some day if you and a partner have a child
... and I think to myself woah, this is amazing my mother is saying me and another woman
having a child, you know? How unbelievable is that?
And then look out for shame as well. Because a lot of my stuff was based around shame.
And there's nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to being gay, it's just being
beautiful.
I think for me I have my list of things that help me, so exercise, I love running and cycle
now. Staying sober for me is a big thing. Getting enough sleep, eating, listening to podcasts
like this one
LLC: (laughs)
NK: Routine and structure, they are all things that would help me to, on a daily basis.
Focus on people that inspire me, not people who annoy me. So easy to just get caught up in
that.
LLC: That's a great one.
NK: Yeah, and then someone said to me, if somebody belittles or minimises my
experience, that it's not ‐‐ it's a reflection on them and how they see their life, it's not
anything to do with me. So that's something that I, I suppose I really liked that when I heard
it.
And I think getting involved with people. You're not on your own. I thought for years that I
was on my own, and now suddenly my circle of friends is just getting wider and wider and
the groups that I'm getting myself involved in of these people that are just like me. You
know, it genuinely is amazing.
So, if you are struggling, ask someone to help. There are so many people out there that are
willing to help. You know, the fact that someone recommended your course for me, and
then how my life has changed in such a small space of time between now and then. And the
most wonderful women that I have met through that, the most wonderful friendships. So
yes, you're not on your own and ask for help!
Outro: The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line’s Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy and we would like to thank Niamh for speaking to us for this episode. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community in Ireland. DLL is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer whether it’s 2 euro or 100 hundred euro it makes a big difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.
Niamh Kearney: So, I met yourself by taking part in the Women's Wellness Course in Outhouse
earlier this year, about a week before Covid lockdown came we finished up thankfully.
Yeah, and I suppose I had come out only a couple of years previous to that, and I turned 40
this year, which was a big step ... a big...
Laura Louise Condell: Momentous birthday?
NK: Yeah, a big change in your life.
LLC: Milestone?
NK: Yeah, I had, I just had ‐‐ I suppose I had, I came out a lot later ‐‐ in my opinion I
came out later than a lot of people do, but realistically now, having become part of the
LGBT community I realise that it's actually not the case, that there's a lot of people who
have come out a lot later than me. Even recently I spoke to a lovely lady at a nice social
event in the War Memorial Garden, I was talking to this lovely lady who came out in her
late 50s after being married for years with two grown‐up children. She had an amazing
story. And it was just great to be able to sit there and swap our experiences of how I thought
37 was late to come out, and this woman was in her 50s. So, I suppose everyone has their
own journey and everyone has their own time will come and mine just was I suppose a bit
later.
I think since we did the soapbox sessions, I reflected a little bit on probably grieving not
coming out till later in my 30s, kind of, now that I've started to experience LGBT life and
the community, realising the beautiful amazing people that I've met and kind of, at moments
grieving that I missed out on that for so many years and I spent so many years in a dark,
dark place with depression and anxiety and addiction problems. Where now, in the space of
like such a small space of time, I've had such a change in my life that I just feel, I know who
I am at last. I love who I am at last, which is an unbelievable feeling to have, when you go
through years and years of self‐hatred and self‐sabotage and just abusing yourself, but with
alcohol, drugs, food, anything that will change how you feel.
I've just had these moments where I felt oh, I wish, I wish ‐‐ and I have to kind of remind
myself that's just how it is for me. And I wouldn't be who I am today if I hadn't gone
through all those things that I did go through. So, I kind of recognise it for what it is and say
well look, I'm only 40, I'm so young!
LLC: Absolutely.
NK: Yeah, and I think turning 40 as well has just really helped me to really not care
what people think about me. I kind of got that in my mid 30s and coming up to around the time when I decided to come out, in my experience coming out for a second time, which we
had talked about in the soapbox sessions, but yeah, just that feeling of what other people
think does not matter to me. Other people are too busy with their own lives anyway,
thinking about themselves to have to think about me.
LLC: I love that. Five minutes in I'm getting emotional! I completely hear
what you're saying about that, that grieving. I know a lot of people go through that, no
matter what age they come out at. I know people that come out at 23 and they are like I've
come out too late because I missed the college experience. Or, you know, people that come
out as you said in their 50s and 40s. I think what you said there about, that's how it is for
me. But also, when I hear people's journeys and their stories, maybe if they had been out
earlier. Like you're ready to embrace the community now and all of the richness and colour
that it has to offer. But maybe before if you were still struggling with the things that you
struggled with before, maybe you might not have had the same experience.
I know you can't compare and you can drive yourself mad with things like "what ifs" but I
think that's a really great attitude to have. But I think it's also okay to allow yourself to have
that grief and to picture what would the NK aged 25 have been like on the scene? Or
what would, you know, NK celebrating her 30th been like? I think it's definitely okay to
have that imagining of what would that have been like, but to also know that it's not
stopping you now.
NK: No. Not at all, it's making me throw myself into things that I wouldn't have done
before. You know, signing up for meeting up with people that I don't know and doing
activities with them, that I would never have taken part in. You know, even recently I went
on an adventure weekend in Waterford with an LGBT group and it was absolutely brilliant, I
was rock climbing and kayaking, absolutely unbelievable. Oh, cycled the green way as well
in Waterford, got myself a bike. Haven't had a bike since I was about nine. Joined a casual
kind of fun cycling group, again another women's, gay women's group that just meet up for
fun and do, like yesterday we did a 30k cycle.
LLC: Wow!
NK: Nothing too big, and even yesterday we were talking about what if we did 100k
cycle and we trained for it, you know? So, kind of just putting myself out there to get
involved I suppose with other women in the community. New friends. Like lots of new
friendships, and doing things that I just never thought were for me. It was okay for other
people to do them, or as I used to say, it was okay for other people to be gay, but it wasn't
okay for me to be gay.
I kind of, looking at my life, I kind of see that I saw that in lots of other areas, not just
sexuality. You mentioned college there, I barely even did my Leaving Cert, and God bless
my poor parents sent me to one of these educational colleges that were like thousands of
euro, to try and see if, you know, to make me go. But at that point I was already in trouble
with drink and drugs, and had massive mental health problems.
But this year I just started, three weeks ago I started back in college. I never got to go to
college.
LLC: That's incredible.
NK: So, I had gone and do other diplomas in different courses over the years, but I
never actually went and got a degree. So, it's kind of been a goal of mine, okay this is
something I wanted to do. So, I signed up and I started my level 8.
LLC: Congratulations.
NK: Yeah, it's really exciting.
LLC: That is definitely one thing I've noticed that people who come out, what
they feel later, especially for people that come out in their kind of 40s, 50s, it can often be a
catalyst for, you know, it's like for, if you've held something in for so long or you haven't
been able to go for what you want for so long. That when you finally come out it's like
you're emerging and get to be all the other parts of yourself that maybe you haven't had a
chance to yet. I think that's, that makes me feel that maybe 40s or 37 is the perfect age for
you to come out.
NK: Yeah for me, perfect.
LLC: Propelling yourself on a 30k cycle is pretty impressive. Aiming for ‐‐ that sounds really impressive to me because I can't cycle at all. So even someone that just gets on a bike and socialises at the same time.
NK: Yeah, such a nice way to hangout, and you know, with a lovely group of women
who are in the same position that they just want to widen their circle of friends it's really
nice
LLC: I was here, it's such a lovely way and I was about to say it sounds terrifying! (laughs)
NK: Coffee and cake halfway kind of makes it nice, and the views.
LLC: And you mentioned there, you know, struggles that you've had with your mental health and addiction. For people, anyone that wasn't at the soapbox session, would you be okay to go into a little bit more about your background in that if you're comfortable to?
NK: Yes, absolutely. So, growing up I would have been very sensitive, or as my
mother used to say, super sensitive. We talked about this in the soapbox sessions. I
mentioned as a child watching myself cry in the mirror and you had said to me afterwards,
that you had laughed with your sister, because you could relate to someone in your family
doing similar.
LLC: It completely warmed my heart, I'm just picturing that child, I hope I can
say it, Cara, sorry! My sister, my sister was the same. And all those feelings, yeah.
NK: That little girl that now I can actually look back on that little girl, little NK and
think God I'd love to give her a hug now. Where for years I beat myself up, for being too
sensitive. Where now actually I kind of have changed. I used to see being sensitive as a
negative, where now I actually see it as a positive.
I will go out of my way to help someone if I can. Truly, genuinely will. I probably will put
myself in a worse position at times because I can be a little bit too much of a fixer, or a
people pleaser. But I really do try my best if I can help someone, I will help them. And I
think that that just comes with super sensitivity. That I'm very empathic, I feel other
people's pain at times. And I just want to help them. You know?
So, I've kind of changed my thinking around that. I suppose that's a big part of being in
recovery, so back to, sorry, what you said to me was about my experience with addiction
and my mental health problems.
So yeah, growing up I was a very sensitive child. And I think I was probably around, it was
around that time that we moved from one area in Dublin to another, and I definitely think
that my sexuality was beginning to come out in me then. I didn't know this obviously at the
time, but when I look back on memories and I reflect on situations or people, and I can
actually, I just have these thoughts, these clear thoughts of oh yeah, that would make sense
as to, I was starting to realise that's how I felt towards women.
But we moved to this new area and suddenly I was out of this really comfortable place that I
lived in, I was very happy in my school and I suddenly was in a school where I was way
behind, I didn't have any friends, I spoke very, I had a bit of a howya accent as they would
say, compared to where we lived. Like I'm not a howya, but I would have been picked on
for being different.
I dressed differently, like these little small simple things that really do matter to kids. They
were all wearing Doc Martens and I was wearing LA Gear with lights and my tongues up
and silky track suits, and I just didn't fit in. But because I was that super sensitive little kid,
I couldn't cope with it, just don't cope with it.
So, the sexuality thing was just way too much to have to deal with as well. So that was
being pushed down and there was no way that was coming out. And then when I was
probably 13, I think was the first time I drank, and I somehow managed to move to this
nicer, posher area, but I was like a magnet to the people who had behaviour problems or
who had probably self-esteem problems or family problems.
So, I ended up hanging out with people that were, like me, that drank and ended up doing
drugs in their teenage years. Wasn't interested in school. I used to see it as I was such a bad
teenager and such a bad person and such a bad kid. But I now know that I wasn't bad. I just
was really confused and I was just lost. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to
express my you felt, I didn't know how to deal with it, so that was how I managed.
I remember being a teenager though and my dad saying when I was about 17, telling me I
was an alcoholic and I was absolutely pissed at the time and I think I had been standing on a
bridge threatening to jump off, which like, drunken behaviour and suicidal thoughts would
have always come in when I got drink or drugs into me. My poor dad, God bless him,
coming to collect me and throw me in the back of his car, taking me off a bridge and
bringing me home and saying you're 17 and you're an alcoholic! And I laughed at him
thinking he's pathetic like, how am I an alcoholic, I'm 17 and I'm a girl! Like as if being a
girl means you can't be an alcoholic. And I don't think, it probably didn't really register with
me at the time, but a couple of years later when I ended up going in for treatment, when I
was 25 I ended up as an inpatient in St. Patrick's Hospital, and I do recall that memory when
I had a conversation, I think one of the first conversations I had with my therapist in there
and him saying to me, how does it feel to be 25, an alcoholic and a drug addict?
I felt like telling him where to go.
LLC: I can imagine.
NK: But also, I didn't really believe him. You know? I kind of thought, I'm not, how
could I be? I still saw it as; I just had this stereotypical understanding of what I thought an
addict and an alcoholic was. I just didn't think that I fitted into the picture.
LLC: I think that's still very prevalent now, specially the female and young
thing. I don't know, we somehow have this image, even though so much more education has
come out, about a man on the street with the brown paper bag or just someone much older
anyway.
NK: Yeah, and even though I was always one of these people who on the outside
everything looked great, I wouldn't go out without my hair perfected and my makeup done,
high heels, you know, dressed up as if, you think I was probably going to the shops. I
wouldn't let anyone see me look that there might have been something wrong, but inside I
was dying. I absolutely hated myself, I hated how I couldn't control my drinking, I hated
that I didn't want to go out unless I could get drugs. And then I hated myself when I was
sober. So, it was kind of this vicious circle of how am I going to get out of this.
And part of me didn't want to get out of it either, because I knew that if I stopped, I was
going to have to continue with it and then there was no going back. If that makes sense?
LLC: It makes perfect sense; I completely get you. Because it's really scary
then I imagine, especially when you've lived that way since you were 13, you don't know
anything else. All those formative years when you've learned socialising and that kind of
thing, it sounds like they were all accompanied by drink and drugs, so you've got to learn not
just how to live without alcohol and drugs, but also how to socialise and do all those ‐‐ how
to be as an adult?
NK: Yeah, I think probably one of the scarier things was when I, so when I left that
hospital I was told you need to go to AA, that's the only place for you to go and I'm so
grateful that I did go, and I made such brilliant friends over the years. I've gone to a few
different 12 step programmes, not just AA. I've gone to Coda, which is like a 12 step
programme for relationships for trying to have healthy relationships for people who are
codependent, and even now all these years later, my recovery, even though I mightn't go to
say 12 step meetings, everything that I've learned from those is what I practice to keep
myself sober and to keep myself well.
And even I remember a couple of years ago when I was living up north and I did a diploma
in counselling, therapeutic counselling. And I remember thinking this is all exactly what's
out of the big book of AA! It was just leave out the God word and yeah, it was all, just like a
different version of it as such.
LLC: Which is positive because it means that, it sounds like it's quite
professional then you know? And when you, if you don't mind me asking, when you were
leaving St. Pat's and they were saying you've got to go to AA, by then had you accepted
okay I have a problem, I need to do something about this or were you still thinking I don't
know?
NK: No! I was thinking no, I'm going to ‐ I had heard this thing about get to three
months sober. So, my plan was I will do that and once I get to three months sober that will
prove I'm not an alcoholic and then I can learn to drink again. So, I did that exactly. I got
sober for exactly three months and on that day I was in Canada, I said okay, not an
alcoholic, let's go drinking, and I'm missing maybe six hours of that night because I started
off with just having a beer and then that led to another to another, to another and I'm not
really sure then where the rest of the night went.
I went on that holiday with a boyfriend who had an engagement ring with him and ended up
coming back single without the engagement ring, which was an absolute blessing in disguise
because ...
LLC: The gods!
NK: Yeah, thank you.
LLC: Maybe didn't feel like it at the time though, or did it?
NK: I don't know what I felt like. I think I just, I don't think it was ‐‐ when I look
back on my relationships, I've done a lot of research into codependency, because I would see
a lot of traits in me that are, a lot of addicts would have, or even people who are in a family
with other addicts that they have these codependency traits. Like the people pleasing and
the fixing.
When I look at the relationships that I had, it wasn't that actual person, it was, they were my
security. You know I would have, if you lined all my exes up in a row actually you just
could not figure out that I would have went out with these people. It's like nothing, no one
has anything in common or there's no traits. But I would just find something in that person
they would be right, I'm safe if I'm with this person for the moment and I will just, I will stay
with them and I won't be on my own. Because if I'm on my own then I'd have to deal with
the reality of what was actually going on in my head.
LLC: And were you aware of that or was that something you only realised later on?
NK: No, I had no idea.
LLC: Because you are incredibly ‐‐ I was going to say you sound incredibly
self-aware, but you are incredibly self-aware. You put the work in. Which I know I said it
to you before, you have put the work in!
NK: I had to idea! I have gone to lots of therapists, and I've loved it. I have loved it.
I've gone to therapists when I have been in dire straits and I will be in a situation and I just
won't be able to figure it out by myself. And I've gone to, I've tried lots of holistic therapies
as well. I kind of just see it as self-care. You know, I look after ‐‐ we all look after our
physical health as best that we can, and I think for me my mental health, I have to keep on
top of it, I have to ‐ I have like, I have my own list of things that I know this is what works
for me. If I do these certain things I will stay well. If I don't, I will fall back into that place
of isolating, not getting enjoyment out of the things that I normally would, over eating.
So, I would because we have to eat, I would, you know we can't not eat.
LLC: Not like alcohol where you can stop drinking.
NK: Yeah, you can stop drinking, you can stop taking drugs.
LLC: Mm‐hmm.
NK: You can't stop eating. So that was something that hadn't really been a problem for
me before, but then it became in recovery from alcoholism, that became a new problem to
deal with.
LLC: Yes.
NK: But I think I'm way more aware now, where I'll catch it.
LLC: Yes.
NK: And I'll see it before it gets too far, thankfully.
LLC: I think that's the thing, correct me if you don't feel the same way. I think
sometimes when people think of the word recovery, not just with addiction, but with mental
health as well, it's kind of like recovered. Like it has a point where then it's done, you're
recovered.
NK: Bing you're fixed!
LLC: But I really think of it as an on‐going maintenance thing and learning
what's going to work for you and then not that you won't ever feel bad again, but that you'll
be able to recognise things that you'll have the self-awareness and then the tools to cope with
what comes up. And sometimes struggle to cope as well, that's also part of it. I don't think
it means somebody isn't still recovering, you know? I think sometimes with the word
recovery it can sound very like it's a full stop and then you're done and that it's okay to have,
not okay, it's great, it's actually brilliant to have all those self-care things.
I love your approach to therapy as well and trying holistic things. It sounds like you've
done, you know from being in hospital, to holistic, to AA, to therapist there's been a really
broad range. I love that I'm really ‐‐ you know this from me from the wellness course, all
about that with mental health. Like throw everything at it and see what sticks. There's no
one size fits all. Just pick, just feel what's going to work for you because it's not going to be
the same for ...
NK: No, that might not work for you and so on, and I love that I suppose.
LLC: Me too. I think it's more freeing than sometimes mental health things
can feel very prescriptive and restrictive, like I have to meditate, I have to do this, I have to
do this. But actually, it's finding what works maybe? Could you please tell us about any
personal experience you have with internalised homophobia and what is that also if you're
able to talk about that please?
NK: Okay, so yeah, internalised homophobia. I did not know there was such a thing, I
didn't know what it was until we sat in this room, we're in now, the red room in outhouse,
and it came up in the wellness group for the women's programme. And I had this moment
like a light bulb went off and I realised that I suffered with internalised homophobia.
I had no idea. But when I actually did a little bit of research into it, I learned that I would
have grown up in a homophobic house, and society. I was born in 1980, so my memory of,
my understanding of gay people when I was saying in the 90s, early teenager, was that gay
people were bad, wrong and immoral. That if you were gay you were dirty, you were going
to get AIDS, you were going to get HIV. Sky News I think was only a couple of years old
and suddenly we had 24-hour news, and they just concentrated on AIDS and these people,
like "these people" like as if we're another type of human, we're not like normal humans.
LLC: These mutants. (laughs)
NK: Yeah. You're going to die. I remember just thinking the words, you know, queer
‐‐ now I have started to use that word now and I'm beginning to love it. But I have to put
effort into it, because when I was growing up "queer" was a negative term and I grew up
with hearing, like the famous queers, the wonderful ones, like Freddie Mercury, Elton John,
the queers, but not in a good way.
So, I just had this, this built in belief that I learned from other people, that I learned from the
media, not just my family, that, you know, it wasn't okay to be gay. And then I kind of
realised that that just led me down a road to more self-hatred, more self-sabotage,
depression, anxiety, never feeling good enough, risky behaviours, compulsive behaviours,
obsessive behaviours, under achieving, codependency, people pleasing, attempts to alter my
own sexuality.
So, knowing I was gay but making a conscious decision I am going to turn this off and I am
going to be normal like everyone else and actually practising that for years. Sometimes I
think maybe I should have been an actress! I spent years pretending. Like years and years
pretending that, you know, putting on this front that I was actually okay with how my life
was. Where deep down I wasn't, I was so, so miserable with it. And I just didn't know that
within me was this, I had learned this ... I'm not sure if hatred is the right word? I definitely
had self-hatred, and I definitely abused myself because of that hatred. But I had this belief
that it wasn't okay to be gay and that you weren't as good as, or you weren't enough
compared to non-gay people. Which is, I just, I remember just thinking oh wow, this is
something I just didn't know that was there. And it was great, because then I could actually
deal with it and realise, you know, I could then actually sit down with my family and have
conversations.
LLC: Oh wow.
NK: And talk about it. And in my soapbox session I talked about, I had come out in my
late 20s to a family member and it was taken really badly and I was in a relationship with a
girl at the time that I was mad about her and I was having a great time, and I came out and it
was taken really badly and I was basically told that I was disgusting and that I was a
disappointment and that there was something wrong with me. And I just had such a, I had
no sense of self and I didn't have enough courage within me to actually just stand up and say
well that's who I am and that's how it's going to be. I did what a lot of people do, I ended the
relationship and I got back in the closet and I got myself into a long-term relationship with a
man, that I spent years miserable in. Absolutely miserable in, and I'd say he must have been
miserable too, because how could you be with someone who's depressed, anxious and
miserable all the time? How could you be happy?
I think it was two unhappy, unwell people, who ended up together. But yeah that's what, for
me coming out and being rejected did for me. So, it gave me another ten years in the closet.
LLC: Wow.
NK: Yeah.
LLC: It's really, as you said so many important things there. First about the,
how internalised homophobia is made in a person, because you know, the messages that we
get, especially when we're young, that's what forms our opinions and not just our opinions,
but our deep core beliefs. And then how that can resonate with someone without, to the
extent where a person can become really unwell and have all these other experiences
because of what these negative messages about our identities, that are around us, what that
does to a person. I think about parents a lot and, you know a parent that would say, I wish,
you know, just hide it, just go back in the closet. I think maybe people don't process the
amount, the impact that had, it's not just that one part of your life. For a person that, it can
take over their entire life and impact everything. And for decades. Decades too.
I think it shows, you said you didn't have enough courage. I think it shows incredible
courage actually to come out not once but twice, and it's not ‐‐ I mean it makes perfect
sense that after all the messages you had growing up, and specially the first 13 years of your
life was illegal to be gay in Ireland anyway. And any of the queers, the wonderful queers
that were represented, not in a good way, but were also male it sounds like, so not seeing
yourself and definitely not seeing yourself in a positive light, like any women.
That of course then when someone says those things to you, that you're disgusting, it just
reinforces that. It's like oh yeah, you're right. Then it's not to do with courage, the courage
is that you then did come out at 37 and do all the incredible ‐‐ now you're sitting here! I
think that's pretty remarkable. I wouldn't say there's a lack of courage there Niamh!
NK: I suppose yeah, I couldn't think of one positive role model, gay role model
growing up. Where nowadays there's just, there's so many, and I had a pretty large group of
friends and no one was openly gay. As far as I'm aware I'm the only gay, which I find a
little bit strange. Am I really the only gay? Is there someone in the closet maybe? I don't
know. I don't care, God I hope for their, if there is, that they would find the courage to come
out. But I had a pretty large circle of friends and it's only, again looking back and going oh
that's a bit strange isn't it, that there were so many of us.
I do remember acquaintances while growing up, say the odd person in school and they, you
know a boy, a teenaged boy who was gay, who got a terrible time, who was bullied, who
was picked on, it just ‐‐ there was just nothing that I can remember that was positive.
LLC: How would that encourage anyone to come out?
NK: Yeah.
LLC: And then ... how did you get to this point then? What made you come
out in the end?
NK: So, it would have been pain, yeah. Loss and pain. So, my dad died in 2017 and I
think I just realised, you know my dad was only 68 when he died and he loved his life and
he was so happy. And we loved him so much. And I remember thinking I'm 37, I'm
miserable. If I actually ‐‐ if someone was to say you're going it die now, it wouldn't
actually have bothered me, which when I think about it is really sad.
I would have suffered with suicidal thoughts for years, and my understanding of it now is
completely different. If I was told tomorrow that I was going to die, I would be so, so
traumatised because I love my life now. But back then I didn't. I just didn't see any worth in
my life and it was just, I just kind of got through. I put on a brave face and I just got
through. I did obviously have moments where I was happy. But I had a lot of dark times.
And I just think, dad had died, there was other personal things that had happened and gone
on. I just thought I can't live like this anymore. I'm just going to have to face up to this and
so I left that long term relationship that I was in and I ‐‐ it's so funny, I don't do things in
halves like.
I left in a snowstorm. I packed up my car, didn't tell anyone. Left the UK, came, arrived on
my mother's doorstep with all my bags and I'm like hey, can I move in here? I had no job, I
had no home, I had ‐‐ I literally had no money. And my car, I had to give back because it
wasn't in my name. So, I had nothing. I was back in my bedroom in my mam's house. I
remember thinking it can't get any worse than this. You have lost everything. Everything
material, I still had all the people around me and I do remember saying to my mam, you
know what, if I have done live in a bedsit on my own, I don't care. If I'm happy that's all
that matters.
And now it's only been a couple of years and things have changed totally. I have my own
apartment, I have a job, I'm back in college, you know, I've managed to get myself back on
my feet by myself. Well, with the help of, I have a very, very good family that are very
supportive. But it just shows me. I remember that week of being back in my mam's and in
my bedroom going how did I end up here? You know? And going, I remember I started
seeing a psychologist to try and help me to get through that period, and yeah it did, it was a
lot of hard work, but it was worth it. Yeah, and things have turned around.
LLC: You turned things around. You are definitely ‐‐ you have been
absolutely instrumental in where you are now, I don't think it's been, you know, chance and
luck! I think you put huge effort in.
So, we always like to finish on something, what would you say to people that are listening
that maybe either, whatever message you want to give, either to do with people who feel like
they've left it too late to come out? Or maybe someone who's struggling with substance
dependency or eating difficulties or maybe someone who's struggling with suicidal ideation.
Do you have anything you'd like to say to anybody? That's a big one I know!
NK: Yeah, I was looking at my bookshelf before I came out, and I was looking at some
of the books that I have over the years, that have helped me. And the 12 step programme I
find really helpful, but Russell Brand has a book called Recovery, and he has rewritten the
12 steps in it, and they're brilliant and they're so simple and he's taken out God. And for
people, it's just I think the 12 step programme is written in the 1930s, so he has rewritten the
steps and has rewritten the programme that people can actually understand and relate to. So,
I would say to anyone that's thinking I'm in trouble with drink and drugs or food, but I don't
want to go to one of those places, I'd say have a quick look at his book. Even read his steps.
Each chapter has sections in it of how you can help yourself and so on, so that is really
useful.
For things when it comes to say codependency and people pleasing and not looking after
yourself properly, there's an author called Melody Beattie, and she has a book called The
Language of Letting Go, which is like daily reflections for people. And I have the app on
my phone and I have the book, and the book no longer has a cover because I've used it so
much, it's just highlighted and all dog's ears and everything. But every day is a different
little reading, like probably a two minute reading, but it will always be something that you
can relate to in life and I find that really helpful.
LLC: Brilliant.
NK: She also has a book called Codependent No More which helps people, how to
stop controlling other people and start looking after yourself.
LLC: Oh brilliant.
NK: With coming out as gay, I think for me my biggest problem was that I didn't have
a strong sense of self. And that was something that I found through counselling and
therapy. And a lot of hard work, was actually build a sense of self. I wish I had a magic
solution to say here, 1, 2, 3, you do this and then it's there. But for me that was a big part of
it.
A few things I'll say though, after coming out, it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to
be. I had magnified it, so I thought it was going to be a lot worse. People might have felt
uncomfortable for a small amount of time, but very quickly they got used to it. Even my
mother, like my mother does talk about now, oh some day if you and a partner have a child
... and I think to myself woah, this is amazing my mother is saying me and another woman
having a child, you know? How unbelievable is that?
And then look out for shame as well. Because a lot of my stuff was based around shame.
And there's nothing to be ashamed about when it comes to being gay, it's just being
beautiful.
I think for me I have my list of things that help me, so exercise, I love running and cycle
now. Staying sober for me is a big thing. Getting enough sleep, eating, listening to podcasts
like this one
LLC: (laughs)
NK: Routine and structure, they are all things that would help me to, on a daily basis.
Focus on people that inspire me, not people who annoy me. So easy to just get caught up in
that.
LLC: That's a great one.
NK: Yeah, and then someone said to me, if somebody belittles or minimises my
experience, that it's not ‐‐ it's a reflection on them and how they see their life, it's not
anything to do with me. So that's something that I, I suppose I really liked that when I heard
it.
And I think getting involved with people. You're not on your own. I thought for years that I
was on my own, and now suddenly my circle of friends is just getting wider and wider and
the groups that I'm getting myself involved in of these people that are just like me. You
know, it genuinely is amazing.
So, if you are struggling, ask someone to help. There are so many people out there that are
willing to help. You know, the fact that someone recommended your course for me, and
then how my life has changed in such a small space of time between now and then. And the
most wonderful women that I have met through that, the most wonderful friendships. So
yes, you're not on your own and ask for help!
Outro: The creators of this podcast are Dublin Lesbian Line’s Laura Louise Condell and Cáitríona Murphy and we would like to thank Niamh for speaking to us for this episode. Dublin Lesbian Line is a confidential support service for the LGBTQAI+ community in Ireland. DLL is run by volunteers and relies on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer whether it’s 2 euro or 100 hundred euro it makes a big difference to a small organisation like ours. Thank you for listening and take care.