In the first episode of our new season Laura Louise spoke to Dublin Pride’s Culture and Training Manager, Chris Gebhardt, about coming out as non-binary, and their experience of being black and queer in Ireland.
You can listen below or you can listen on Acast, iTunes, or Spotify. Links:
Acast: S2 Ep1: Chris Gebhardt - Women STAR | Acast
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3SjIm8y
iTunes: Women STAR: S2 Ep1: Chris Gebhardt on Apple Podcasts
You can listen below or you can listen on Acast, iTunes, or Spotify. Links:
Acast: S2 Ep1: Chris Gebhardt - Women STAR | Acast
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3SjIm8y
iTunes: Women STAR: S2 Ep1: Chris Gebhardt on Apple Podcasts
Transcription
Intro
Hello and welcome to season 2 of the women STAR podcast! We have an amazing line up of guests for you this season, but to kick off first Laura Louise spoke to Dublin Pride's Culture and Training Manager, Chris Gebhardt, about coming out as non-binary, and their experience of being black and queer in Ireland. Chris began by telling Laura Louise about what is was like to come out as non-binary during the pandemic.
Chris 0:25
I guess gender is, obviously, such a complex and personal, or subjective I guess it's the right word, thing and it's taken me a while to figure out and I'm still I'm still figuring it out - where I fit into the, the whole gender spectrum... Specter...I'm just making up words as I go.... But yeah, so basically, about a year ago, was it a year ago? Now the COVID time soup has just messed my brain and understanding of time, but basically, about a year ago, I came out as as a non binary or started coming out as non binary, because coming out is a process because every time obviously, you enter a new social circle or a new work environment. And I'm, I'm, I'm very privileged and grateful for the fact that I do work with Dublin pride. So it was just a matter of sending a text to my colleagues, because that's what we millennials do. We don't talk, we just text. I was like, I can't say this out loud. But I can text it. And I guess, you know, that's also part of the journey being more more comfortable with actually saying to people, Hey, I am non binary. And I'm still, I'm still not very comfortable with doing that. Just because I feel like, you know, when you're starting a conversation, and no one's introduced themselves with their pronouns, and then you're like, oh, by the way, and then you know, it's kind of hard for me to find the right moment to intersect and go, Hey, I am actually using this set of pronouns. But I actually found that it was harder for me, but it is harder for me to come out to people that I've known for a long time, because I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, me as this one thing. And I have to make it complicated and introduce myself as this other thing. But it's actually not complicated. And all like, all across the board, everyone I told has been nothing but supportive budget, I've been very grateful to in the sense that I just, I just pick the best people to surround myself with. But yeah, it's been, it's definitely been a journey. So it was kind of obviously, first coming out, sending those initial texts to my colleagues, my my, my housemates, and my landlady. Those were the first people I kind of officially told I am non binary, I would like to be referred to with a them pronouns.
Laura Louise 3:00
So what about, like growing up or finding out about the term non-binary? Like, when did it start to fit for you? Or did you always feel a certain way? And then you heard it and you were like, oh, that's me.
Chris 3:12
Yeah, well, funnily enough, the first time I heard non binary, which was during my undergrad in Hamburg, so my minor so I did, I mentioned that I'm Austrian? So I'm Austrian, English is not my first language. So I did my undergrad in Hamburg in Germany. And it was my, during my minor, which was an English studies, we had this kind of cafe where you could just sit and speak English, because it was all the English students that would socialize there. So one of my friends came out as non-binary. And they, they explained to me what it was because I was like, What is this new term? So that would have been back? Probably around five years ago, so but I didn't, I didn't associated with me or it didn't click and I was like, Oh, my God, this is who I am. And what I've been looking for all my life. I was just like, oh, yeah, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. I support you, whatever you need. But I suppose growing up, I always felt like, my gender was kind of it was or my gender performance was off, in the sense of it wasn't what people expected of someone who had been, you know, assigned female at birth. So it was kind of a, like, seeing where we're fit in. And I didn't really understand what I was doing wrong, so to speak, but people would come up to me even when my hair is quite short, but even when I when I was younger, my hair was longer and you know, even if, if I was wearing a dress, for example, which I hated at that age, but people will come up to me and ask me if I was a Boy in a girl and I was like, of course, I'm a girl. So I still are, I very much felt I felt female and I felt I felt feminine, I suppose. But it wasn't in a way that made sense to people, if that makes sense to people who are listening to this. So then it was kind of a matter of kind of realizing that it was something that happened gradually of not feeling female anymore. And I would say that up until recently, I would, I was very comfortable in my feminine, well, not femininity, but femaleness. But that just changed. You know, it was a matter of over time, and over the last few years of being comfortable with being addressed as she her and as a woman, to just not anymore, and was kind of obviously COVID. And I didn't want to I didn't want to mention the C word. Okay, we are. And, yeah, so obviously, not everyone had time on there lots of time on their hands, which was good and bad. But I definitely did did a lot of soul searching as many people did. I I'm sure. But I was just like, This just doesn't, it doesn't feel right anymore. And I've started to feel increasingly uncomfortable with being addressed as female. And then it got to a point where I just, I just had to get rid of the the pronouns, the female pronouns, altogether, reject the binary.
Laura Louise 6:46
Thank you so much. And so when you started to feel like okay, she heard is not for me. Um, do you feel comfortable with a them? Or is that something that's, you know, best of a bad lot kind of thing for you?
Chris 6:59
Eh no, I do feel very comfortable with them because it's it's part of the English Language and gender neutral pronouns, they in them have been part of the English language since the since the 14th century. So I like things to make sense. And which is obviously terrible when you're, you know, queer, because nothing makes sense. Because whenever I have to explain gender, I'm just like, I just, I'm just making up words as I go. Because it's so personal, it's feelings, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's who you are. So it's so hard to describe, and as a person that is very, very logical. And sometimes people will put it down to me being a Capricorn if you're one of the astrological folks out there. I'm a Capricorn. I don't know anything about moons rising and all of that, but I'm a very logical, I suppose, person. So it made sense to me. And it felt comfortable to me because it was part of the part of the English language. And it was something again, going back to the journey that I started at first using both sets. So she her and then they them, I just, I didn't even bother explaining it, you know, like, when you're on Zoom, you just like change your zoom signature, and then that's at or display name, and then it's like, oh, that's the equivalent of coming out during COVID I suppose. But But I once I dropped the sheet her obviously that needed a bit of explaining on my part, I guess.
Laura Louise 8:35
Amazing. I like what you were saying about the coming out over, during COVID over zoom, I saw actually quite a lot of people did that, or even, I wouldn't have known their pronouns before. But you know, we started to see them all over zoom. And a lot of people at the start were using she/they and he/they and then went to 'they' completely by the end of the pandemic, so you can see people having that confidence or our growth over over that Zoom time. And I guess because names can be such a emotive topic for our community. And what about your name? How does that still align with you?
Chris 9:15
Yeah, so I love I love my name. Not not Chris but but Christelle. And I've had actually people come up to me and ask if I, I had shortened it, because I'm non-binary now. So if if I prefer to be called, or known as Chris, but for me my name although it is considered a female or feminine name. It isn't female because I'm not female. So my name to me is is me and I am not female. So therefore, my name is alternate female, but I I totally get why people would decide or or have different feelings about that, especially when you're or transbinary and you're dealing maybe with gender dysphoria, which, which I'm fortunate to not be dealing with. But yeah, for me, my name was never an issue actually quite like it. And I wish more people could pronounce it here. But alas...
Laura Louise 10:20
I wish I could as well. So many have tried and I think it's good to try. But you mentioned and I'm kind of in denial about this, because I don't want you to leave Ireland. Ah but you said you're considering moving to a German speaking country. And so I believe German is a very gendered language. So how have you gone about translating your gender identity experience from English where you've come out in English to German?
Chris 10:56
Well, that is a thing. That is that is definitely a thing. So. So yeah, I'm, I'm definitely kind of getting homesick in the sense of I'm, I've done my I've done my bit of traveling now. And I want to kind of move move back to my Germanic roots. I don't know if. Yeah, but, but yeah, so it's been an it's only something that I've recently thought of, because I was home in Austria over the summer, how I would like to be addressed. And I do speak German quite a lot here. Because my partner is German. But, and I told her that, you know, you can you can address address me as female. But I've, I've noticed, over the past few weeks, even actually, that's, you know, going back to the journey, over the past few weeks, when I was in Austria, that I just, it's just very frustrating. But because German is so gendered, and it's not just, you know, people that have a gender, for example, it's inanimate objects as well. And it's not just pronouns and words, it's Yeah, it is words. And it's, it's also words within the sentence, I can't really explain it that well, because I'm not a linguist. But every, every word in, or most words in the sentence are linked to your gender. So they change depending on your gender. And obviously, in the German language, there's only two options female, and male when it comes to people. So going back, or thinking about going back actually gave me quite a lot of anxiety, because I just didn't know how I would fit in. And I didn't want to have to kind of teach people a new language every time I met someone introduced myself because the thought actually that that may be most anxious was when someone or when I came out to someone them asking, you know, being supportive, but then also asking, so how would you like me to address you going forward? Because I don't have the answer, because the German language doesn't really have an answer to that question. And there are groups obviously, that have been trying to create a new system for for the language, but because it's different groups in different locations, those systems vary. And the only solution that I see is if the people who decide on the German language, get their act together and come up with a solution for people like myself, and also inter intersex people, to to fit in because intersex people obviously are legally acknowledged in in Austria in Germany. But, you know, the language isn't there. So it's not just non binary people and trans people. It's also intersex people, because biological sex as well. Just get rid of that binary binaries, just don't do them.
Laura Louise 14:16
And it's something that I've, again, you gave me so much food for thought just like the last 48 hours, I've just been thinking, thinking thinking about everything you said, and I guess, you know, living only through English, you know, I always think about how our language still has so far to go with them when I hear about your experience of trying to think about, um, how do you dress to your own language, and how there is nothing naturally there to like step into or to take take on or that's been designed for you. And I realize how actually, we have a you know, there's so much more here because you were actually saying to me the other day about how some languages are just adopting like an English version of certain words. So when it comes to gender and sexuality, have you figured out what you want to be addressed by address in German? Or have you found like a temporary stopgap?
Chris 15:08
Ehm well, yes. I've only figured that out recently. But I think I'm just going to ditch, ditch the pronouns altogether, because there is a way of just, and it's not very sexy linguistically, but you know, it's, it's because it's a lot of repetition of your name. So you would say, Chris, that is Chris did that. Chris, did you know this? Or Chris? Is this Chris, Chris, Chris. And while I like hearing my name, repeated back, and we have not, you know, not that much. So that's kind of the solution that I've come up with, because I do believe that the language will change. And I think that it's, it's, it's so important when it comes to injustice and kind of liberation movements that we will we act locally, and that we find ways in our own languages to, to express ourselves and to express the injustice that we face. Because otherwise it almost becomes removed. And I feel like that happened during the Black Lives Matter movement, for example, because we also call the Black Lives Matter, because obviously, it's a name. And we also don't have a word for race in, in German, because in German, because of our history with the Nazis race refer to something else. So we use the English word. And there's little things like that. Like colorism, for example. And I'm black, while you can't see me, but I'm black. So that's why I'm talking a lot about, about about race and my experience of being being black as well. And, yeah, so so so it's important that we don't almost dis, dis attach the letter word, our language from from from, from the injustice that we face, I think so that we are sure that it is specific to where we live specific to the people who are experiencing that and not something that we copy and pasted from the States because obviously, it's so different over there. And even from from the UK or from Ireland. So I think it's important that we find language, and I think, coming back to gender, in the German language, I think we will get there. I don't know, when we live to see it? I hope so. But I also doubt it because it is a very conservative language as we can see. And anyone who's tried to learn it, has probably made the same experience.
Laura Louise 17:51
I studied German in school, and it was just really hard. Thank you so much for this. I really struck by what you were saying, you know that during the pandemic, it's like you're at the stage where it's, as you're saying, being a typical Millennium millennium, Millennium Allah. Oh, okay. That's difficult millennial, to send it out through writing. But actually, you know, people have come out through through writing for all of time, let's say, but also to just be at that stage where like, I'm not comfortable enough to even verbalize this to then also having to think about how do we change the language? What are the words, and I always think it's so unfair for the people who are, you know, living and going through something, but then also trying to process it themselves to try and then have all of the answers and have all the words and come up with the new word to go in a dictionary or to be used? Like, it's a lot. So I hope that I don't know who the language makers are. But I hope that they also take that responsibility, because it of course, like nothing about us without us, like the community that effects should, of course, be consulted and listened to, but it shouldn't be only on communities to advocate to have their own identities or, or characteristics recognize in their own language.
Chris 19:11
Yeah, and I think Sweden or Finland, don't, don't quote me on this, but one of those Scandinavian countries, they actually did introduce gender neutral pronouns, quite recently. So it is possible. And they, they didn't use the them, they use pronouns, hen, I think is the one that fit in there fits fits with their language. So it just someone just needs to take the lead here and it needs to be your government and the language people need to find out who they are. I need to write an angry letter.
Laura Louise 19:45
We're both looking blankly at each other going to the language people [laughs)
Chris 19:49
Council of linguists. Yeah, I don't know. But, yeah. Going back to what you were saying about, basically carrying the world, the weight of the world on your shoulders, that's also something that I was thinking of quite a lot. Because through my work with Dublin pride, you're, you're obviously expected, or I expected that of myself to almost become poster child of, of queerness and have self confident queerness. And being you know, out and proud and and that was something that I struggled with last year. And when I didn't when it wasn't out, and it wasn't proud, but also had to perform on a you know, you just crank the guy up come June, just like yeah, okay, I'm just extra gay this month. But I was struggling and I just remember sitting in my garden and crying. And I told my, my my housemate who, who's editing this podcast, I don't know, if I can, I can give away your identity. But Cáitríona, I told Cáitríona, that I was struggling with my gender identity. And I felt like a like a fraud almost because I was like, extending a helping hand to the gays in need, who were struggling with their gender identity. And I said, it's okay, and take your time and all of that. But it's, I guess, it's also about learning to learning to accept myself. So it's, it's yeah, I definitely learned I'm trying to be a bit kinder to myself, because, you know, you got to give yourself a hug every now and then. And you got to say, you know, it's okay to not have all the answers. And yes, I am, I am literally as I introduced myself, I'm a professional, queer or queer professional, what, whatever you want to call it. But that doesn't mean that, that I'm not human. I'm still 26, I'm not perfect. And it doesn't matter. Speaking of my of my age, it doesn't matter if you're 16, or 26, or 89, or 150. If you live that long, that's very impressive. When when you're ready, you're ready. And it doesn't matter how you get there when you get there. But you know, just gotta gotta try your best. It's hard out there. It's hard. It's hard.
Laura Louise 22:14
And it's hard inside your mind. Because I think for a lot of the community, especially more visible people, they feel like, Oh, that poster child pressure, but you were literally above a poster child for the queers. You were on posters. So I can imagine that that really, like, amplified that for you. So thank you so much for being honest about that as well. Because yeah, you would look at a poster of you and think like, wow, this person has it all together. And you know, the most super confident and comfortable in their identity. I think that can teach us also about assumptions. And I think when we don't make those assumptions by people that can bring us closer together to know that everyone's figuring something out all the time, whatever it is. Thank you so much for that. You mentioned being black, and also being Austrian. So you moved to Ireland a few years ago, and again, I'm just blanking on the, the part that you're leaving. But what has it like been like for you? What's the experience of being black and queer in Ireland for you?
Chris 23:20
Eh positive, it's been it's been positive, but I think it's because I was socialized and raised in a very, white country, like lily white country. And coming to Ireland, like Ireland in my eyes is much more diverse than then Austria. So that's how white that's a white Austria is. And so I moved here in 2019 obviously didn't get a lot, a whole out lot out of out of out of Dublin before the pandemic hit. But I, what I did, I did get in touch, or I did get involved with with groups like Origins Ella and Black Queer Book Club over the past three years. And they've been such a great kind of, like emotional resource, if that makes sense. Because it's so like, so good. It's just so good for the soul to be in a space where you don't have to explain your experience and don't have to justify why you react a certain way because people know why you would react in a certain way or they, they they know the experiences that you've made, and also just just a bunch of fun people so I can highly recommend if any black queer people that are Dublin based are out there to kind of get involved with, with those groups. And if you're not Dublin base and you don't have those groups, maybe is trying to start your own because obviously, it's it's very city, city centered everything. And we tend to forget that, I guess when you're in the capital, but also kind of try to get involved in, you know, tying back with your local communities to, to find people that are close to you. So, yeah, so it's been a positive experience overall. And it's been good to see what kind of issues people here face, the black community, but also the queer community, because, you know, sometimes you would go into black space and think you're safe. But then as a queer person, you're you're not, and then you would enter queer space, but you're the only black person in the room. And while I'm used to being the only black person in the room, I don't like it. So and, you know, people sometimes don't understand how specific certain experiences are. So I'm definitely hoping that they will grow and that, that more groups that kind of center, not just around pain, and suffering and discrimination, but also about just reading books and reading texts, and having fun and having a sports day. And you know, just having just just going out and all of that, because, like, we know, we're black, we know, we're queer, you don't have to remind us every day. And you know, you don't want to be reminded every day of your oppression. And you don't need to be because you know, it's something that you live anyways. And I think that's why it's so important for black people, and black queer people in particular, to create their own narrative and tell their own stories as well, without that white gaze that constantly tries to pathologize us. And they're like, Oh, well, tell me about your racism. And tell me about your experience with racism. And tell me about your suffering and your pain. And people make it making us do all the emotional labor. So yeah, lots of thoughts there. Lots of thoughts.
Laura Louise 27:10
But amazing, and thank you so much for sharing. I hope that people that are listening, whatever their ethnicity or skin color can relate to, you know, the importance of safe spaces, and having dedicated spaces for certain identities or or groups of people. Like you mentioned, the two groups, which will will link for me share this podcast, are specifically for people of color and black people, there's no white people allowed into the spaces. And that sounds like a really important thing like is that to not have that white gaze to just like, be your regular self, but not have the additional layer of having to explain that?
Chris 27:50
Yeah. I mean, and some of the events are obviously open to other folks as well. But you know, it's also and that that's something that people who are not a member of certain marginalized groups should should remember, not everything is for you. And that's okay. And if you see an event that is, you know, is marketed as a black event, then maybe think twice, about whether it is your place to be there. Or maybe you should just support from afar, or maybe wait for an event where they say, you know, this is not just a black people only event but an event for everyone, but always think before you think enter a space created by a marginalized group. If, if it's okay for you to be there. Or if you're just, you know, intruding, basically,
Laura Louise 28:49
I think that's probably something that a lot of white people have never thought twice about, like, is this space for me? And should I even be in this space? And am I taking up space in a negative way or, like filling a space in a negative way? And so that's a really important message as well. Thank you. Um, is there we were just talking about being like queer living in Ireland, is there anything about like queer culture here that strikes you or that stands out to you? I know, we were talking the other day about about labels and drinking culture.
Chris 29:21
And in terms of labels, I suppose. And that's, I guess, the queer community and you know, I don't want to generalize but it's not just Ireland. I think it's, you know, everywhere. And not just the queer community, but you know, society as a whole we like to name things, we like to be able to categorize and stick them in the boxes. So when I would describe my sexuality, depending on the context I'm in for I do give a lot of talks as part of my job and workshops. Sometimes because it's sometimes it's just easier for people to understand that I'm pansexual and non binary. Whereas I don't really, I don't really feel pansexual per definition I am, but it just I don't have any connection to that word. And I, I would much rather prefer to just use the word queer. And now I know for a lot of people, and that's why sometimes, especially when there's, there's, there's older people in the room. One of the questions that I actually often get back is, is it okay to use the word queer. So it's, you know, there's definitely a kind of generational shift that I noticed there that some people would be very much comfortable with using it, and some people wouldn't. So that's why sometimes using pansexual slash non binary is easier for and and more comfortable for people to digest. But I personally, I'm just I'm just clear, it was a big old queer. I'm happy to call myself that. But obviously, we need to be mindful and respectful of the fact that people have grown up with that being used as a slur. And if someone tells you, I don't want to be called queer, then you know, we need to respect that.
Laura Louise 31:25
Absolutely. And it could be something that even like you said, you are professional queer, but for me and doing things with Dublin lesbian line, sometimes you even start slipping into that, because to go like LGBTQIA plus community, you'd hear that I stumble over my words. So sometimes you don't want to just like slip into that and queer, because it's just, it's quicker. Yeah, that one syllable just ran off nicely, but I can actually make people feel really uncomfortable still. So thank you for bringing that up, as well. Almost, you know, you would think maybe somebody would think that people would find it harder to digest, like pansexual non binary, but actually, it can be queer, that's the triggering word,
Chris 32:07
as it's so vague, and it leaves so much room for interpretation, but, or, but also growth, I find, it's just, you don't have to, if you just know that you queer, but you don't really know who you are yet, or how you fit into the rainbow spectrum, or whatever you want to call it. It's, it's so liberating to have a word that includes you without forcing you to define you and and also just going back to what I said about my own gender identity, where it did feel very comfortable being described, and would have called myself female. But that's not the case anymore. Obviously, that fluidity can be hard for people to to understand. Because it's not, it's not one or the other. It's just like, you know, I just, I just grew out of my female, such as I was just like, I'm done with this, I tried it, and you know, I don't want it anymore. And this kind of, and then, you know, first before I came out as pan or whatever, you know, I guess, you know, I would have only dated and gone out with with men. But then started dating women as well. And now, but now mostly dating, dating women. So does that make me a lesbian now, or, you know, I just, I just don't know. And I honestly, I don't care. So that's why queer is just so nice, because you don't have to call yourself pansexual or lesbian or this or that. And I get why people like to have a sense of their own identity, because it's so empowering. And it's powerful. And we can't forget that people fought very hard for the right to be called lesbian and to be recognized and celebrated as lesbians. So we can't forget that but I personally just, I'm just, I'm just like, I'm done with the labels, throw them out the window.
Laura Louise 34:16
I love that what you say about queer and also you're saying about, you know, we don't always people don't always want to be reminded of their oppression. And I think that sometimes queer while a really political term for some people, I also like it because of its play. It can be playful a little bit because you could be referring to gender sexuality, either or both. And when you say it to someone, they can immediately conjure up something but it doesn't necessarily mean what you like. That's what you mean. And you don't have to elaborate like I kind of feel like it can be a fun term as well. Although I know for it, not everybody is in a place to have fun with their their words. But just when sometimes they can be I know for people, it can be Yeah, but for people for myself as well frustrating to always, you know, have to give a label to other people, especially outside of our community. And so queer can be this kind of, well, that's an answer. But is it?
Chris 35:11
Yeah. But that's, that's the beauty of find of the community that we're not, in a sense, like others that were resistant to change, I feel like we're all about change at all about shift, shifting language and being more inclusive and growing and changing, because the whole point of queerness is kind of a rejection of the norm, and even our own norms, as well. So that's what I find very, very liberating about, about being queer, that nothing has to be fixed, and you can change and you can grow and then you know, obviously, that that ties in with with, with, with with gender and sexuality being being a journey, and it's so nice to still see people grow and little shout out to the CEO of ShoutOut who came out as as trans while at the time of the recording the night before. So, it's it's just so, so, so positive to see people embracing, embracing who they are and not being afraid to change. Yeah.
Laura Louise 36:29
Yeah I agree. I have goosebumps. Thank you. Um, is there anything else you'd like to cover or chat about?
Chris 36:39
Yeah, well, people drink a lot is what I've noticed. And I know there's stats and in Austria is also one of the most drinking country's most drink heavy... Most drunk countries... I don't know how you say it properly. But I feel like there's a difference here tha inn Austria - I feel like I feel like here it's very much everything you do is kind of centered around a pub, or it's in a pub. And especially when it comes to queer nightlife because a lot of things, you know, take place in a pub or the club's the George Street, 66, panty bar, Penny Lane, are all nighttime venues. And yes, obviously, we can argue that there are different spaces as well, but having uniquely queer spaces, which is obviously so important, these days, thinking back of the year, we had in terms of homophobic violence, and it's kind of I get why we why we need them. But I would, I would wish that we would have spaces that centered that are that are sober spaces as well, because I've I've definitely my drinking has skyrocketed in this country. And I've only since I moved here. And I've only kind of been able to, to, really back in recently, where I'm like, Okay, I want to be more conscious of the fact that I'm drinking because alcohol is a drug. You know, trying to trying to be more mindful of what I'm consuming and the effect it has on my body and my, my mental health because you got to watch out for yourself. And, you know, alcohol doesn't doesn't always help. So, yeah, but yeah, definitely, something I've noticed is that Ireland has a drinking problem. Just yeah, that's, that's, that's it.
Laura Louise 38:49
And it can be something that people can slip into really easily, especially like, you say, Okay, you're like, Okay, I want to go to a dedicated queer space, these places, I'll serve alcohol. You want to keep being in the space that's queer. And then therefore, there's more alcohol and it can just very quickly become something that you're going to almost tied in with identity, confidence, self esteem. I think there's such a great point there about needing sober queer spaces, because there's phenomenal meetups that go on that do lots of things in the day at outside and there's loads of amazing sports groups. But I know for people it can we want a physical space a building something with a flag on it's something that, you know, you can just go to it without having to necessarily join something. What if you're not sport-ally inclined? So yeah, I really agree with you like that. And but I also have seen the last few years a lot more people are becoming conscious about their alcohol consumption, and are really kind of calling out for spaces like that. So hopefully, in time, it's something that we'll get because we have a pretty big queer population here. Yeah. So I guess it's again about Being hard to, you know, be part of the group that needs something and then also being the one to like advocate for it and set it off and do that. But hopefully that's something we'll get in time.
Chris 40:10
Yeah, definitely. And, and I can definitely see a shift with with the younger generation, the youths, because from from what I've seen, with the, with the queer, young ones is that they drink less, which is, which is obviously good to find other outlets and other ways of, of, you know, socializing as well. Because I do want to I do you know, we do want to go out and we do want nightlife as well. But I would appreciate it as well, if, if you could just, if there wasn't drink, there wasn't any drink being served or being offered because I'm weak. And if someone offers me a drink, then I will drink it. Yeah, but yeah.
Laura Louise 40:56
Thank you so much for that. Is there any final message you'd like to say?
Chris 41:02
Am Yeah, so I think what I want to take people away from this is to be gentle with themselves and kind of take take their time growing into themselves and also accepting that it is very hard and surrounding themselves with people who who support who support you another shout out to my to my to my main girl Cáitríona Murphy, producer of this wonderful podcast, and I just wanted to say also massive thank you to you, Laura Louise as well, because this podcast did did mean a lot to me when it first came out season one, because the stories that were being told were so, so inspiring. And it was so good to hear from so many different people and to be on this podcast now. It's just like, wild. So yeah, I'm very grateful to be here.
Laura Louise 41:58
Thank you so much. I'm so grateful. And as you said, when you start off started off you are an inspiration. That was amazing. Thank you so much.
Chris 42:09
Yeah. Started from there started from the bottom now we're here. Are you gonna sing that started from the bottom now? We're here. I don't actually know the lyrics. That's all I know. Yeah, just you know, we all started from the bottom and now we're somewhere so just just embrace it. If Yeah, if I could drop this mic, I would drop it now. signal that I'm done.
Laura Louise 42:31
Wise words from Chris on Drake [laughs]
Outro 42:36
Well that's it for today, thanks for listening and we would like to say a special thank you to Chris for speaking to us for this episode and we also want to thank Chris for composing the new theme music of Women STAR! Dublin Lesbian Line is a support service for the LGBTQAI+ community in Ireland. DLL is run by volunteers and relies heavily on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer. Lastly, we want to thank Dublin Pride for sponsoring the new season of Women STAR, we couldn't have done it without their support. And if you liked the podcast please spread the word! Thank you for listening and see you next time!
Hello and welcome to season 2 of the women STAR podcast! We have an amazing line up of guests for you this season, but to kick off first Laura Louise spoke to Dublin Pride's Culture and Training Manager, Chris Gebhardt, about coming out as non-binary, and their experience of being black and queer in Ireland. Chris began by telling Laura Louise about what is was like to come out as non-binary during the pandemic.
Chris 0:25
I guess gender is, obviously, such a complex and personal, or subjective I guess it's the right word, thing and it's taken me a while to figure out and I'm still I'm still figuring it out - where I fit into the, the whole gender spectrum... Specter...I'm just making up words as I go.... But yeah, so basically, about a year ago, was it a year ago? Now the COVID time soup has just messed my brain and understanding of time, but basically, about a year ago, I came out as as a non binary or started coming out as non binary, because coming out is a process because every time obviously, you enter a new social circle or a new work environment. And I'm, I'm, I'm very privileged and grateful for the fact that I do work with Dublin pride. So it was just a matter of sending a text to my colleagues, because that's what we millennials do. We don't talk, we just text. I was like, I can't say this out loud. But I can text it. And I guess, you know, that's also part of the journey being more more comfortable with actually saying to people, Hey, I am non binary. And I'm still, I'm still not very comfortable with doing that. Just because I feel like, you know, when you're starting a conversation, and no one's introduced themselves with their pronouns, and then you're like, oh, by the way, and then you know, it's kind of hard for me to find the right moment to intersect and go, Hey, I am actually using this set of pronouns. But I actually found that it was harder for me, but it is harder for me to come out to people that I've known for a long time, because I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, me as this one thing. And I have to make it complicated and introduce myself as this other thing. But it's actually not complicated. And all like, all across the board, everyone I told has been nothing but supportive budget, I've been very grateful to in the sense that I just, I just pick the best people to surround myself with. But yeah, it's been, it's definitely been a journey. So it was kind of obviously, first coming out, sending those initial texts to my colleagues, my my, my housemates, and my landlady. Those were the first people I kind of officially told I am non binary, I would like to be referred to with a them pronouns.
Laura Louise 3:00
So what about, like growing up or finding out about the term non-binary? Like, when did it start to fit for you? Or did you always feel a certain way? And then you heard it and you were like, oh, that's me.
Chris 3:12
Yeah, well, funnily enough, the first time I heard non binary, which was during my undergrad in Hamburg, so my minor so I did, I mentioned that I'm Austrian? So I'm Austrian, English is not my first language. So I did my undergrad in Hamburg in Germany. And it was my, during my minor, which was an English studies, we had this kind of cafe where you could just sit and speak English, because it was all the English students that would socialize there. So one of my friends came out as non-binary. And they, they explained to me what it was because I was like, What is this new term? So that would have been back? Probably around five years ago, so but I didn't, I didn't associated with me or it didn't click and I was like, Oh, my God, this is who I am. And what I've been looking for all my life. I was just like, oh, yeah, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. I support you, whatever you need. But I suppose growing up, I always felt like, my gender was kind of it was or my gender performance was off, in the sense of it wasn't what people expected of someone who had been, you know, assigned female at birth. So it was kind of a, like, seeing where we're fit in. And I didn't really understand what I was doing wrong, so to speak, but people would come up to me even when my hair is quite short, but even when I when I was younger, my hair was longer and you know, even if, if I was wearing a dress, for example, which I hated at that age, but people will come up to me and ask me if I was a Boy in a girl and I was like, of course, I'm a girl. So I still are, I very much felt I felt female and I felt I felt feminine, I suppose. But it wasn't in a way that made sense to people, if that makes sense to people who are listening to this. So then it was kind of a matter of kind of realizing that it was something that happened gradually of not feeling female anymore. And I would say that up until recently, I would, I was very comfortable in my feminine, well, not femininity, but femaleness. But that just changed. You know, it was a matter of over time, and over the last few years of being comfortable with being addressed as she her and as a woman, to just not anymore, and was kind of obviously COVID. And I didn't want to I didn't want to mention the C word. Okay, we are. And, yeah, so obviously, not everyone had time on there lots of time on their hands, which was good and bad. But I definitely did did a lot of soul searching as many people did. I I'm sure. But I was just like, This just doesn't, it doesn't feel right anymore. And I've started to feel increasingly uncomfortable with being addressed as female. And then it got to a point where I just, I just had to get rid of the the pronouns, the female pronouns, altogether, reject the binary.
Laura Louise 6:46
Thank you so much. And so when you started to feel like okay, she heard is not for me. Um, do you feel comfortable with a them? Or is that something that's, you know, best of a bad lot kind of thing for you?
Chris 6:59
Eh no, I do feel very comfortable with them because it's it's part of the English Language and gender neutral pronouns, they in them have been part of the English language since the since the 14th century. So I like things to make sense. And which is obviously terrible when you're, you know, queer, because nothing makes sense. Because whenever I have to explain gender, I'm just like, I just, I'm just making up words as I go. Because it's so personal, it's feelings, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's who you are. So it's so hard to describe, and as a person that is very, very logical. And sometimes people will put it down to me being a Capricorn if you're one of the astrological folks out there. I'm a Capricorn. I don't know anything about moons rising and all of that, but I'm a very logical, I suppose, person. So it made sense to me. And it felt comfortable to me because it was part of the part of the English language. And it was something again, going back to the journey that I started at first using both sets. So she her and then they them, I just, I didn't even bother explaining it, you know, like, when you're on Zoom, you just like change your zoom signature, and then that's at or display name, and then it's like, oh, that's the equivalent of coming out during COVID I suppose. But But I once I dropped the sheet her obviously that needed a bit of explaining on my part, I guess.
Laura Louise 8:35
Amazing. I like what you were saying about the coming out over, during COVID over zoom, I saw actually quite a lot of people did that, or even, I wouldn't have known their pronouns before. But you know, we started to see them all over zoom. And a lot of people at the start were using she/they and he/they and then went to 'they' completely by the end of the pandemic, so you can see people having that confidence or our growth over over that Zoom time. And I guess because names can be such a emotive topic for our community. And what about your name? How does that still align with you?
Chris 9:15
Yeah, so I love I love my name. Not not Chris but but Christelle. And I've had actually people come up to me and ask if I, I had shortened it, because I'm non-binary now. So if if I prefer to be called, or known as Chris, but for me my name although it is considered a female or feminine name. It isn't female because I'm not female. So my name to me is is me and I am not female. So therefore, my name is alternate female, but I I totally get why people would decide or or have different feelings about that, especially when you're or transbinary and you're dealing maybe with gender dysphoria, which, which I'm fortunate to not be dealing with. But yeah, for me, my name was never an issue actually quite like it. And I wish more people could pronounce it here. But alas...
Laura Louise 10:20
I wish I could as well. So many have tried and I think it's good to try. But you mentioned and I'm kind of in denial about this, because I don't want you to leave Ireland. Ah but you said you're considering moving to a German speaking country. And so I believe German is a very gendered language. So how have you gone about translating your gender identity experience from English where you've come out in English to German?
Chris 10:56
Well, that is a thing. That is that is definitely a thing. So. So yeah, I'm, I'm definitely kind of getting homesick in the sense of I'm, I've done my I've done my bit of traveling now. And I want to kind of move move back to my Germanic roots. I don't know if. Yeah, but, but yeah, so it's been an it's only something that I've recently thought of, because I was home in Austria over the summer, how I would like to be addressed. And I do speak German quite a lot here. Because my partner is German. But, and I told her that, you know, you can you can address address me as female. But I've, I've noticed, over the past few weeks, even actually, that's, you know, going back to the journey, over the past few weeks, when I was in Austria, that I just, it's just very frustrating. But because German is so gendered, and it's not just, you know, people that have a gender, for example, it's inanimate objects as well. And it's not just pronouns and words, it's Yeah, it is words. And it's, it's also words within the sentence, I can't really explain it that well, because I'm not a linguist. But every, every word in, or most words in the sentence are linked to your gender. So they change depending on your gender. And obviously, in the German language, there's only two options female, and male when it comes to people. So going back, or thinking about going back actually gave me quite a lot of anxiety, because I just didn't know how I would fit in. And I didn't want to have to kind of teach people a new language every time I met someone introduced myself because the thought actually that that may be most anxious was when someone or when I came out to someone them asking, you know, being supportive, but then also asking, so how would you like me to address you going forward? Because I don't have the answer, because the German language doesn't really have an answer to that question. And there are groups obviously, that have been trying to create a new system for for the language, but because it's different groups in different locations, those systems vary. And the only solution that I see is if the people who decide on the German language, get their act together and come up with a solution for people like myself, and also inter intersex people, to to fit in because intersex people obviously are legally acknowledged in in Austria in Germany. But, you know, the language isn't there. So it's not just non binary people and trans people. It's also intersex people, because biological sex as well. Just get rid of that binary binaries, just don't do them.
Laura Louise 14:16
And it's something that I've, again, you gave me so much food for thought just like the last 48 hours, I've just been thinking, thinking thinking about everything you said, and I guess, you know, living only through English, you know, I always think about how our language still has so far to go with them when I hear about your experience of trying to think about, um, how do you dress to your own language, and how there is nothing naturally there to like step into or to take take on or that's been designed for you. And I realize how actually, we have a you know, there's so much more here because you were actually saying to me the other day about how some languages are just adopting like an English version of certain words. So when it comes to gender and sexuality, have you figured out what you want to be addressed by address in German? Or have you found like a temporary stopgap?
Chris 15:08
Ehm well, yes. I've only figured that out recently. But I think I'm just going to ditch, ditch the pronouns altogether, because there is a way of just, and it's not very sexy linguistically, but you know, it's, it's because it's a lot of repetition of your name. So you would say, Chris, that is Chris did that. Chris, did you know this? Or Chris? Is this Chris, Chris, Chris. And while I like hearing my name, repeated back, and we have not, you know, not that much. So that's kind of the solution that I've come up with, because I do believe that the language will change. And I think that it's, it's, it's so important when it comes to injustice and kind of liberation movements that we will we act locally, and that we find ways in our own languages to, to express ourselves and to express the injustice that we face. Because otherwise it almost becomes removed. And I feel like that happened during the Black Lives Matter movement, for example, because we also call the Black Lives Matter, because obviously, it's a name. And we also don't have a word for race in, in German, because in German, because of our history with the Nazis race refer to something else. So we use the English word. And there's little things like that. Like colorism, for example. And I'm black, while you can't see me, but I'm black. So that's why I'm talking a lot about, about about race and my experience of being being black as well. And, yeah, so so so it's important that we don't almost dis, dis attach the letter word, our language from from from, from the injustice that we face, I think so that we are sure that it is specific to where we live specific to the people who are experiencing that and not something that we copy and pasted from the States because obviously, it's so different over there. And even from from the UK or from Ireland. So I think it's important that we find language, and I think, coming back to gender, in the German language, I think we will get there. I don't know, when we live to see it? I hope so. But I also doubt it because it is a very conservative language as we can see. And anyone who's tried to learn it, has probably made the same experience.
Laura Louise 17:51
I studied German in school, and it was just really hard. Thank you so much for this. I really struck by what you were saying, you know that during the pandemic, it's like you're at the stage where it's, as you're saying, being a typical Millennium millennium, Millennium Allah. Oh, okay. That's difficult millennial, to send it out through writing. But actually, you know, people have come out through through writing for all of time, let's say, but also to just be at that stage where like, I'm not comfortable enough to even verbalize this to then also having to think about how do we change the language? What are the words, and I always think it's so unfair for the people who are, you know, living and going through something, but then also trying to process it themselves to try and then have all of the answers and have all the words and come up with the new word to go in a dictionary or to be used? Like, it's a lot. So I hope that I don't know who the language makers are. But I hope that they also take that responsibility, because it of course, like nothing about us without us, like the community that effects should, of course, be consulted and listened to, but it shouldn't be only on communities to advocate to have their own identities or, or characteristics recognize in their own language.
Chris 19:11
Yeah, and I think Sweden or Finland, don't, don't quote me on this, but one of those Scandinavian countries, they actually did introduce gender neutral pronouns, quite recently. So it is possible. And they, they didn't use the them, they use pronouns, hen, I think is the one that fit in there fits fits with their language. So it just someone just needs to take the lead here and it needs to be your government and the language people need to find out who they are. I need to write an angry letter.
Laura Louise 19:45
We're both looking blankly at each other going to the language people [laughs)
Chris 19:49
Council of linguists. Yeah, I don't know. But, yeah. Going back to what you were saying about, basically carrying the world, the weight of the world on your shoulders, that's also something that I was thinking of quite a lot. Because through my work with Dublin pride, you're, you're obviously expected, or I expected that of myself to almost become poster child of, of queerness and have self confident queerness. And being you know, out and proud and and that was something that I struggled with last year. And when I didn't when it wasn't out, and it wasn't proud, but also had to perform on a you know, you just crank the guy up come June, just like yeah, okay, I'm just extra gay this month. But I was struggling and I just remember sitting in my garden and crying. And I told my, my my housemate who, who's editing this podcast, I don't know, if I can, I can give away your identity. But Cáitríona, I told Cáitríona, that I was struggling with my gender identity. And I felt like a like a fraud almost because I was like, extending a helping hand to the gays in need, who were struggling with their gender identity. And I said, it's okay, and take your time and all of that. But it's, I guess, it's also about learning to learning to accept myself. So it's, it's yeah, I definitely learned I'm trying to be a bit kinder to myself, because, you know, you got to give yourself a hug every now and then. And you got to say, you know, it's okay to not have all the answers. And yes, I am, I am literally as I introduced myself, I'm a professional, queer or queer professional, what, whatever you want to call it. But that doesn't mean that, that I'm not human. I'm still 26, I'm not perfect. And it doesn't matter. Speaking of my of my age, it doesn't matter if you're 16, or 26, or 89, or 150. If you live that long, that's very impressive. When when you're ready, you're ready. And it doesn't matter how you get there when you get there. But you know, just gotta gotta try your best. It's hard out there. It's hard. It's hard.
Laura Louise 22:14
And it's hard inside your mind. Because I think for a lot of the community, especially more visible people, they feel like, Oh, that poster child pressure, but you were literally above a poster child for the queers. You were on posters. So I can imagine that that really, like, amplified that for you. So thank you so much for being honest about that as well. Because yeah, you would look at a poster of you and think like, wow, this person has it all together. And you know, the most super confident and comfortable in their identity. I think that can teach us also about assumptions. And I think when we don't make those assumptions by people that can bring us closer together to know that everyone's figuring something out all the time, whatever it is. Thank you so much for that. You mentioned being black, and also being Austrian. So you moved to Ireland a few years ago, and again, I'm just blanking on the, the part that you're leaving. But what has it like been like for you? What's the experience of being black and queer in Ireland for you?
Chris 23:20
Eh positive, it's been it's been positive, but I think it's because I was socialized and raised in a very, white country, like lily white country. And coming to Ireland, like Ireland in my eyes is much more diverse than then Austria. So that's how white that's a white Austria is. And so I moved here in 2019 obviously didn't get a lot, a whole out lot out of out of out of Dublin before the pandemic hit. But I, what I did, I did get in touch, or I did get involved with with groups like Origins Ella and Black Queer Book Club over the past three years. And they've been such a great kind of, like emotional resource, if that makes sense. Because it's so like, so good. It's just so good for the soul to be in a space where you don't have to explain your experience and don't have to justify why you react a certain way because people know why you would react in a certain way or they, they they know the experiences that you've made, and also just just a bunch of fun people so I can highly recommend if any black queer people that are Dublin based are out there to kind of get involved with, with those groups. And if you're not Dublin base and you don't have those groups, maybe is trying to start your own because obviously, it's it's very city, city centered everything. And we tend to forget that, I guess when you're in the capital, but also kind of try to get involved in, you know, tying back with your local communities to, to find people that are close to you. So, yeah, so it's been a positive experience overall. And it's been good to see what kind of issues people here face, the black community, but also the queer community, because, you know, sometimes you would go into black space and think you're safe. But then as a queer person, you're you're not, and then you would enter queer space, but you're the only black person in the room. And while I'm used to being the only black person in the room, I don't like it. So and, you know, people sometimes don't understand how specific certain experiences are. So I'm definitely hoping that they will grow and that, that more groups that kind of center, not just around pain, and suffering and discrimination, but also about just reading books and reading texts, and having fun and having a sports day. And you know, just having just just going out and all of that, because, like, we know, we're black, we know, we're queer, you don't have to remind us every day. And you know, you don't want to be reminded every day of your oppression. And you don't need to be because you know, it's something that you live anyways. And I think that's why it's so important for black people, and black queer people in particular, to create their own narrative and tell their own stories as well, without that white gaze that constantly tries to pathologize us. And they're like, Oh, well, tell me about your racism. And tell me about your experience with racism. And tell me about your suffering and your pain. And people make it making us do all the emotional labor. So yeah, lots of thoughts there. Lots of thoughts.
Laura Louise 27:10
But amazing, and thank you so much for sharing. I hope that people that are listening, whatever their ethnicity or skin color can relate to, you know, the importance of safe spaces, and having dedicated spaces for certain identities or or groups of people. Like you mentioned, the two groups, which will will link for me share this podcast, are specifically for people of color and black people, there's no white people allowed into the spaces. And that sounds like a really important thing like is that to not have that white gaze to just like, be your regular self, but not have the additional layer of having to explain that?
Chris 27:50
Yeah. I mean, and some of the events are obviously open to other folks as well. But you know, it's also and that that's something that people who are not a member of certain marginalized groups should should remember, not everything is for you. And that's okay. And if you see an event that is, you know, is marketed as a black event, then maybe think twice, about whether it is your place to be there. Or maybe you should just support from afar, or maybe wait for an event where they say, you know, this is not just a black people only event but an event for everyone, but always think before you think enter a space created by a marginalized group. If, if it's okay for you to be there. Or if you're just, you know, intruding, basically,
Laura Louise 28:49
I think that's probably something that a lot of white people have never thought twice about, like, is this space for me? And should I even be in this space? And am I taking up space in a negative way or, like filling a space in a negative way? And so that's a really important message as well. Thank you. Um, is there we were just talking about being like queer living in Ireland, is there anything about like queer culture here that strikes you or that stands out to you? I know, we were talking the other day about about labels and drinking culture.
Chris 29:21
And in terms of labels, I suppose. And that's, I guess, the queer community and you know, I don't want to generalize but it's not just Ireland. I think it's, you know, everywhere. And not just the queer community, but you know, society as a whole we like to name things, we like to be able to categorize and stick them in the boxes. So when I would describe my sexuality, depending on the context I'm in for I do give a lot of talks as part of my job and workshops. Sometimes because it's sometimes it's just easier for people to understand that I'm pansexual and non binary. Whereas I don't really, I don't really feel pansexual per definition I am, but it just I don't have any connection to that word. And I, I would much rather prefer to just use the word queer. And now I know for a lot of people, and that's why sometimes, especially when there's, there's, there's older people in the room. One of the questions that I actually often get back is, is it okay to use the word queer. So it's, you know, there's definitely a kind of generational shift that I noticed there that some people would be very much comfortable with using it, and some people wouldn't. So that's why sometimes using pansexual slash non binary is easier for and and more comfortable for people to digest. But I personally, I'm just I'm just clear, it was a big old queer. I'm happy to call myself that. But obviously, we need to be mindful and respectful of the fact that people have grown up with that being used as a slur. And if someone tells you, I don't want to be called queer, then you know, we need to respect that.
Laura Louise 31:25
Absolutely. And it could be something that even like you said, you are professional queer, but for me and doing things with Dublin lesbian line, sometimes you even start slipping into that, because to go like LGBTQIA plus community, you'd hear that I stumble over my words. So sometimes you don't want to just like slip into that and queer, because it's just, it's quicker. Yeah, that one syllable just ran off nicely, but I can actually make people feel really uncomfortable still. So thank you for bringing that up, as well. Almost, you know, you would think maybe somebody would think that people would find it harder to digest, like pansexual non binary, but actually, it can be queer, that's the triggering word,
Chris 32:07
as it's so vague, and it leaves so much room for interpretation, but, or, but also growth, I find, it's just, you don't have to, if you just know that you queer, but you don't really know who you are yet, or how you fit into the rainbow spectrum, or whatever you want to call it. It's, it's so liberating to have a word that includes you without forcing you to define you and and also just going back to what I said about my own gender identity, where it did feel very comfortable being described, and would have called myself female. But that's not the case anymore. Obviously, that fluidity can be hard for people to to understand. Because it's not, it's not one or the other. It's just like, you know, I just, I just grew out of my female, such as I was just like, I'm done with this, I tried it, and you know, I don't want it anymore. And this kind of, and then, you know, first before I came out as pan or whatever, you know, I guess, you know, I would have only dated and gone out with with men. But then started dating women as well. And now, but now mostly dating, dating women. So does that make me a lesbian now, or, you know, I just, I just don't know. And I honestly, I don't care. So that's why queer is just so nice, because you don't have to call yourself pansexual or lesbian or this or that. And I get why people like to have a sense of their own identity, because it's so empowering. And it's powerful. And we can't forget that people fought very hard for the right to be called lesbian and to be recognized and celebrated as lesbians. So we can't forget that but I personally just, I'm just, I'm just like, I'm done with the labels, throw them out the window.
Laura Louise 34:16
I love that what you say about queer and also you're saying about, you know, we don't always people don't always want to be reminded of their oppression. And I think that sometimes queer while a really political term for some people, I also like it because of its play. It can be playful a little bit because you could be referring to gender sexuality, either or both. And when you say it to someone, they can immediately conjure up something but it doesn't necessarily mean what you like. That's what you mean. And you don't have to elaborate like I kind of feel like it can be a fun term as well. Although I know for it, not everybody is in a place to have fun with their their words. But just when sometimes they can be I know for people, it can be Yeah, but for people for myself as well frustrating to always, you know, have to give a label to other people, especially outside of our community. And so queer can be this kind of, well, that's an answer. But is it?
Chris 35:11
Yeah. But that's, that's the beauty of find of the community that we're not, in a sense, like others that were resistant to change, I feel like we're all about change at all about shift, shifting language and being more inclusive and growing and changing, because the whole point of queerness is kind of a rejection of the norm, and even our own norms, as well. So that's what I find very, very liberating about, about being queer, that nothing has to be fixed, and you can change and you can grow and then you know, obviously, that that ties in with with, with, with with gender and sexuality being being a journey, and it's so nice to still see people grow and little shout out to the CEO of ShoutOut who came out as as trans while at the time of the recording the night before. So, it's it's just so, so, so positive to see people embracing, embracing who they are and not being afraid to change. Yeah.
Laura Louise 36:29
Yeah I agree. I have goosebumps. Thank you. Um, is there anything else you'd like to cover or chat about?
Chris 36:39
Yeah, well, people drink a lot is what I've noticed. And I know there's stats and in Austria is also one of the most drinking country's most drink heavy... Most drunk countries... I don't know how you say it properly. But I feel like there's a difference here tha inn Austria - I feel like I feel like here it's very much everything you do is kind of centered around a pub, or it's in a pub. And especially when it comes to queer nightlife because a lot of things, you know, take place in a pub or the club's the George Street, 66, panty bar, Penny Lane, are all nighttime venues. And yes, obviously, we can argue that there are different spaces as well, but having uniquely queer spaces, which is obviously so important, these days, thinking back of the year, we had in terms of homophobic violence, and it's kind of I get why we why we need them. But I would, I would wish that we would have spaces that centered that are that are sober spaces as well, because I've I've definitely my drinking has skyrocketed in this country. And I've only since I moved here. And I've only kind of been able to, to, really back in recently, where I'm like, Okay, I want to be more conscious of the fact that I'm drinking because alcohol is a drug. You know, trying to trying to be more mindful of what I'm consuming and the effect it has on my body and my, my mental health because you got to watch out for yourself. And, you know, alcohol doesn't doesn't always help. So, yeah, but yeah, definitely, something I've noticed is that Ireland has a drinking problem. Just yeah, that's, that's, that's it.
Laura Louise 38:49
And it can be something that people can slip into really easily, especially like, you say, Okay, you're like, Okay, I want to go to a dedicated queer space, these places, I'll serve alcohol. You want to keep being in the space that's queer. And then therefore, there's more alcohol and it can just very quickly become something that you're going to almost tied in with identity, confidence, self esteem. I think there's such a great point there about needing sober queer spaces, because there's phenomenal meetups that go on that do lots of things in the day at outside and there's loads of amazing sports groups. But I know for people it can we want a physical space a building something with a flag on it's something that, you know, you can just go to it without having to necessarily join something. What if you're not sport-ally inclined? So yeah, I really agree with you like that. And but I also have seen the last few years a lot more people are becoming conscious about their alcohol consumption, and are really kind of calling out for spaces like that. So hopefully, in time, it's something that we'll get because we have a pretty big queer population here. Yeah. So I guess it's again about Being hard to, you know, be part of the group that needs something and then also being the one to like advocate for it and set it off and do that. But hopefully that's something we'll get in time.
Chris 40:10
Yeah, definitely. And, and I can definitely see a shift with with the younger generation, the youths, because from from what I've seen, with the, with the queer, young ones is that they drink less, which is, which is obviously good to find other outlets and other ways of, of, you know, socializing as well. Because I do want to I do you know, we do want to go out and we do want nightlife as well. But I would appreciate it as well, if, if you could just, if there wasn't drink, there wasn't any drink being served or being offered because I'm weak. And if someone offers me a drink, then I will drink it. Yeah, but yeah.
Laura Louise 40:56
Thank you so much for that. Is there any final message you'd like to say?
Chris 41:02
Am Yeah, so I think what I want to take people away from this is to be gentle with themselves and kind of take take their time growing into themselves and also accepting that it is very hard and surrounding themselves with people who who support who support you another shout out to my to my to my main girl Cáitríona Murphy, producer of this wonderful podcast, and I just wanted to say also massive thank you to you, Laura Louise as well, because this podcast did did mean a lot to me when it first came out season one, because the stories that were being told were so, so inspiring. And it was so good to hear from so many different people and to be on this podcast now. It's just like, wild. So yeah, I'm very grateful to be here.
Laura Louise 41:58
Thank you so much. I'm so grateful. And as you said, when you start off started off you are an inspiration. That was amazing. Thank you so much.
Chris 42:09
Yeah. Started from there started from the bottom now we're here. Are you gonna sing that started from the bottom now? We're here. I don't actually know the lyrics. That's all I know. Yeah, just you know, we all started from the bottom and now we're somewhere so just just embrace it. If Yeah, if I could drop this mic, I would drop it now. signal that I'm done.
Laura Louise 42:31
Wise words from Chris on Drake [laughs]
Outro 42:36
Well that's it for today, thanks for listening and we would like to say a special thank you to Chris for speaking to us for this episode and we also want to thank Chris for composing the new theme music of Women STAR! Dublin Lesbian Line is a support service for the LGBTQAI+ community in Ireland. DLL is run by volunteers and relies heavily on voluntary contributions so we would greatly appreciate any financial support you can offer. Lastly, we want to thank Dublin Pride for sponsoring the new season of Women STAR, we couldn't have done it without their support. And if you liked the podcast please spread the word! Thank you for listening and see you next time!
